How do you set prices when you are new? a discussion..

HI Chuck,

A fellow knife maker told me that when you price your knives the best one is the most expensive and the worst one the least. The rest fall somewhere in between.

Exactly my point. What if the Best One is stainless steel and wood and the worst one is Damascus and Black Lip Pearl?

I always recommend to my clients when they attend a show, ask the maker which knife they finished right before the show.

I tell them that is one they probably shouldn't buy (ever cram for a final...same principle :D) that knife.

If you have a knife that is the "worst" maybe its best not to put that one on the table.
 

Thirdly: You can price things from a "market' viewpoint. That's where you look at what is selling, and in what price ranges, and you work backwards to come up with the knife you want to make. (or the knife you have already made and want to price) Most experienced makers do it this way, even if they don't do it intentionally! Just remember, the customers ultimately decide prices. If you start with a market viewpoint, you are more likely to come up with something that will sell.


IMHO

Thanks,

Tim



I spent several years following this philosophy and it served me very well.

but I'm the type that needs a lot more structure to my pricing scheme. so what I did is look back at every knife I've ever sold (you DO have every knife recorded somewhere don't you, if not start NOW) and after a lot of hair pulling I came to a pretty good solution (i think)

all of my pricing is based on the length of the blade as I can pretty consistently track that.

I figured a reasonable rate and multiplied that by how long it takes to make the knife then just add materials cost and voila - the price.

at the moment I have not started incorporating any business expenses into the price of the knife, I plan to start phasing that in slowly after I go through the J.S. test.
For now the price of my knives pays materials and time only, I'm FULLY aware that from a business standpoint this is a serious mistake, however I firmly believe that it will bear out to be a good decision years from now when I have built up a clientele and a reputation for providing great knives at better prices.

I'm building a business, not looking to make a buck, quality business decisions will eventually create income, but do NOT focus solely on cashflow.
 
I'm building a business, not looking to make a buck, quality business decisions will eventually create income, but do NOT focus solely on cashflow.

Someone (I forget who) told me on conversation something like, "Look at the guys that have been around a long time. None of them sacrificed their longevity for short term profit."
 
Someone (I forget who) told me on conversation something like, "Look at the guys that have been around a long time. None of them sacrificed their longevity for short term profit."

Sage advice indeed. How many of those guys started out in the hole, learning to make better knives, building a rep, customer base etc... Now many of these makers are gods in the bizz. Good thread gents.
 
Sounds like you guys are referring to what many folks have called, sweat-equity...the old, paying-ones-dues thing! It's tried and true, that's for sure. One's time has a lot of capital value for building a biz, but just like borrowing capital there are reasonable limits to how much a person can extend before making a return. Typically start-up businesses factor in losses for three years to ramp up. That's a lot of investment capital (or time)! This of course factors out differently depending on the manner of the ramp. Many sole proprietor producer/service businesses like ours, progress from hobby, to part time, to full time...sometimes over years.

It still pays to try and think things through up front though. For instance, lets say it takes $50K per year to meet you families needs. A simple question to ask is, how many knives would that take? Here's where knowing your net earnings per knife would be handy. Many "what-if" scenarios can be imagined.
  • What if I make $100 per knife? Then it would take 500 knives. The next obvious question would be...
  • How many knives can I make in a year? (5 dys/wk x 50 wks/yr = 250 days/yr, thus 2 knives per day)
  • What if...

Anyway, you get the idea. I believe the pricing question should take in a much bigger picture than just, how much can I sell this knife for? It also needs to take into account one's capital strengths and needs. It would be prudent to know how much of a business start-up ramp one needs and/or can finance (with money and/or one's time and sweat-equity.) This all presupposes the discussion is related to the business of making knives. If it is more of a hobby than different question might be more appropriate.
 
Knives sell best on the 15th of the month and around the first weekend after. This hold true for me. So I always ram up for that weekend. I usually sell most of my knives.

Most business like their cost of goods to be around 30%. I find this true with knives also. They won't sell too quickly but they will sell during that weekend.
 
I am a FNG at knifemaking but have been in sales all my adult life. One rule I have found that holds true whether it be a knife or a meal in a restaurant: a satisfied customer will tell 2 or 3 of his friends. A dissatisfied customer will tell everyone he sees.
 
This isn't a knifemaker specific thing. When I used to make pens it was a constantly hotly debated topic. Some people went off the 2x or 3x cost of materials, others detailed it out down to the penny on cost spreadsheets. Some who called themselves "artists" went with what they thought their artistic talents were worth. Therefore the same style of kit pen could be sold anywhere from $50 to $350 or more. Then there is the whole hobby maker versus full time maker arguement.

What it really breaks down to in my opinion is users and collectors. Some people only make things targeted at collectors. Others only make things for users.

I for one plan on only making tactical type user knives, so I've got a serious set of built in competition from all around the world. I have a few friends in the military and police..... swat and special forces guys, and If I can get them to sell my knives for me via word of mouth, then the price won't matter as long as I make enough to make the next knife. Word of mouth trumps anything else in any sort of custom business. I figure if I can come in close to price of a good mass manufactured tactical blade, but offer slight variations, and better quality and performance, then my "business" will take care of itself.
 
This has been an excellent thread and I see it helping many new makers, and maybe some of the older makers.

Larry
 
WOW!! From someone who is making their very first knife, selling one seems light years away to me. But I wanted to thank you all for giving some advice that hopefully will be applied one day. Right now.... I'd be happy with just getting cost of materials.
 
I am a FNG at knifemaking but have been in sales all my adult life. One rule I have found that holds true whether it be a knife or a meal in a restaurant: a satisfied customer will tell 2 or 3 of his friends. A dissatisfied customer will tell everyone he sees.

Amen.

Good news travels fast, bad news travels faster.

BC
 
I live in a region where the "custom" knife market is nearly non-existent..... as far as I can tell.

"You do what?"

"Well, that's interesting!"

"I didn't know there was such a thing."

Those, of course are the comments received when I explain that I make knives. This is a region with a vibrant sporting/camping/outdoor culture, but Cape Bretoners(Capers) are also very frugal with the dollars. Knives and hatchets for work or play come from Canadian Tire. There may be a local awareness of the handmade knife "industry", but just no desire/need/ability to tap into it.

The one exception is the tourist industry. We have a well-defined and very lucrative tourist season fueled by cruise ship passengers and vacationing Americans. This population has a bit more disposable income than us local yocals, and can afford the $750.00(using Tracey's formula) I so richly deserve for one of my knives. :cool:There is NOBODY around here that would pay me $750.00 for a camp bowie..... no way, but the rich American tourists could!!

So, how do I price the stuff that I like to do?
I guess I could make a bunch of $100.00 knives that would sell to the locals, but I don't enjoy doing that kind of stuff. I could drop the price of my knives to a point where I loose my shirt if it did sell. But, then I also create a false value/price point perception in my marketplace.

So, again, how do I price the kind of knife I like to make?

Well.... at this point knife making is really just a hobby for me, but I do have a few pieces on sale at a local high-end art gallery. When I decided to go this route I had to go through the agonizing process of pricing my work.

This is what works for me:

As I said, this is a hobby and I budget for the costs associated with practicing it at my own leisurely pace. But, if this hobby can pay for itself, then I'm way ahead of the game. More-so, if I can actually upgrade as a result of a sale - I'm golden! So, that $750.00 knife is listed at $500.00. And if it sells, then I get my new grinder. Another knife is listed at $375.00...... maybe a whole bunch of steel and some musk ox horn.

I take my "real" price and slash it down to where it becomes just enticing enough for that lady to who's looking for a special birthday present for her husband.... the hunter. Its still expensive enough where it becomes a very special purchase, but just cheap enough where she can afford do it. And, its not so much of a loss for me, as I don't put a high dollar value on the leisure time I spent making the knife. Annnnd, if a rich tourist ends up being the new owner of one of my knives, then I consider it to be world wide exposure..... cha ching to the ego!!

At the moment, I don't/won't take orders. I just make whatever I dream up and I do it to my own time line. If, at some point, I get a lot better at this and develop a good reputation and gain a demand for my work, then I'll likely reevaluate my pricing. It will no longer be a purely intrinsically motivated process and I'll have to charge a hell of a lot more for making me WORK!

That's what works for me.... so far. :p
 

Secondly: You can price things from a "production" viewpoint. That's where you make the knife, then add up what you have into it, and then multiply, or add, or what ever your rule of thumb might be, to arrive at the price. In my experience, this usually results in extremes in over-pricing AND under-pricing. Doing it this way can give you lots of headaches and heartaches.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cost-plus_pricing
That is the old fashioned way of pricing


Thirdly: You can price things from a "market' viewpoint. That's where you look at what is selling, and in what price ranges, and you work backwards to come up with the knife you want to make. (or the knife you have already made and want to price) Most experienced makers do it this way, even if they don't do it intentionally! Just remember, the customers ultimately decide prices. If you start with a market viewpoint, you are more likely to come up with something that will sell.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Value-based_pricing
This is the 2010 way of pricing
Although it is harder to calculate than cost plus pricing


If you really want to know all about pricing
I would recommend this book==>
51ZPQBGNVJL.jpg

It has a lot of pricing techniques that may be helpful to a knife maker trying to figure out his pricing strategy
[ame="http://www.amazon.com/Strategy-Tactics-Pricing-Growing-Profitably/dp/0131856774"]http://www.amazon.com/Strategy-Tactics-Pricing-Growing-Profitably/dp/0131856774[/ame]

Further reading===>
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Labor_theory_of_value

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subjective_theory_of_value

I believe in The Subjective Theory of Value
But, there is no "right" way to value an item
Placing an value on something is a problem that has stumped economists since the Dark Ages :eek:
The economic value of a good or service has puzzled economists since the beginning of the discipline. First, economists tried to estimate the value of a good to an individual alone, and extend that definition to goods which can be exchanged. From this analysis came the concepts value in use and value in exchange.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Value_(economics)
 
Hi Trent,

The 5th Edition of "The Strategy of Pricing...." comes out on March 8th.

This from a review:

This is a major update of the classic book on strategic pricing, a book that introduced many of us to the field and that taught us how to think about customer value and how it relates to price. In my case, this book also helped me to sharpen my understanding of pricing, segmentation and bundling and changed how I thought about sunk costs and pricing. If I had read this book ten years ago I would be a wealthier person today.

This book is primarily for someone in corporate America...not necessarily a small business.

The book has 352 pages...kind of long to read through unless you have a fetish for marketing....like I do!

A shorter book that I think would be more helpful is:

Pricing with Confidence by Reed Holden and Mark Burton (240 pages).

This is from a review that I wholeheartedly concur with:

I loved the instruction that the author provides regarding how an owner of a small business has to be willing (and able) to fire unprofitable clients and customers. Business people who compete on price are playing a fool's game. Smart business owners understand that value is the basis for business exchange and that to be successful at business one must FULLY understand value. This book puts forth a pretty good effort to help the reader fully understand value, or at least how to go about fully understanding value after doing a little investigation and research of the market.

Pricing goods and/or services is far from simple. And setting an optimal price is one of the most difficult decisions to make when starting a business. Furthermore, as a business grows and matures pricing at an optimal level continues to be difficult. Prices never stay the same because demand never stays the same. To do this well one must know the market (competitors & customers), know the costs, know the perceived value, and know the actual value.

Getting a handle on all this is not particularly easy. This is especially true because customers are often times very hard to figure out. Some are price buyers, some are value buyers, some are relationship buyers, and some are poker-playing buyers. Knowing these four types of buyers is a heads up for the small business person. But he or she still has to read the customer and figure out which one of these four the customer is before negotiations can be performed in favor of the seller. Read this book and start on your path of being a better pricer of your services or goods.


Te following is from the "Dummies" website regarding Pricing:

Considering Six Approaches to Effective Pricing

Pricing is an integral part of the marketing process. The right price can generate more sales; the wrong price can make your potential customers and clients look elsewhere. The following are six of the most common approaches to setting prices. Carefully consider which approach makes the most sense for your business as you determine your pricing strategy.

* Start-up pricing: If you're just getting started in your business, offer your customers an introductory rate that's set at a point somewhere between what other, established businesses charge and the amount you would be paid if you were doing the work on salary for an employer.

* The going rate: Set your price at the going rate and differentiate your business through things other than price, such as better customer service.

* Splitting the difference: If your competitors offer a range of prices for the same products or services — some high, some low, and some in between — split the difference between the top and the bottom of the range so you can be sure that your price is neither too high nor too low.

* Percentage of the results: Rather than focusing on price, focus on results by tying your fees to the outcomes that you bring about. For example, if you run a collections business out of your home, you may charge a percentage of the money that you collect, say 40 percent, or 40 cents of every dollar collected.

* Bargain basement: If you really want to generate a lot of business quickly, you can dramatically undercut your competitors' prices. Before you try this approach, understand that some potential clients may be wary of buying products and services that are priced substantially below the competition. Understand, too, that you may not be able to keep this approach up for long without doing serious financial damage to your company.

* Premium: Another option is to set the price at a premium, above your competition. This approach works well when the product or service you sell can be differentiated from those offered by your competition, and you can add value that your clients and customers can see and appreciate.

After you set your prices, keep close tabs on what your competition is doing. Are they raising their prices? Lowering them? When your competition moves, be prepared to adjust your prices accordingly. Many times, you simply want to maintain your prices exactly where they are, and deny requests to lower or discount them. While you may lose potential customers in the process, your business will be healthier.

The following sections examine price increases and decreases.
Price increases

Price increases are not usually a pleasant event for the company that makes them — no one wants to tell their clients that they are going to have to pay more money for their products — but they are often necessary for a variety of reasons. Here are some of the most common:

* You've underpriced your products. After you set a price and begin to sell your products and services, you may discover that the money you're bringing in isn't enough to cover the expenses of the business and generate a reasonable profit. In this case, when you can't or don't want to reduce your expenses, you have no other choice but to increase your prices.

* Your expenses have increased. If your costs of production increase, you can either reduce your profit or increase your price. The choice is up to you.

* You need to cover a client's hidden expenses. If you're performing services for a client and discover costs due to working with that client that you didn't anticipate in advance (for example, your client requires you to attend meetings twice a week instead of just once per month as you planned), you have to find a way to recoup them without reducing your profit. The easiest way is to increase your price.

* You want to test the marketplace. Sometimes you simply want to test the marketplace with a higher price, to see if the quantity of units that you sell increases, decreases, or stays the same. Airlines, food manufacturers, and others do this all the time.

* You don't want the work. What if you don't want to do work for certain clients at the low prices you have agreed to? The best way to get out of this kind of situation is to raise prices to a point where you feel you're getting the profit you deserve. If the customer decides to pay more, great! If not, you won't miss it.

Whatever you do, be as forthcoming as you can possibly be when you increase your prices, and give your customers plenty of advance notice so that they can adjust.
Price decreases

In some cases, you find that there's good reason for decreasing your prices, such as the following:

* You've overpriced your services. If you've overpriced your services, you can choose to keep the extra money as profit or give it back to your customers as lower prices.

* Your expenses have decreased. Then again, you can always keep the fruit of your decreased expenses as profit and increase the amount of money you're able to put into savings.

* You want to reward long-term clients. Long-term clients always like to know that they are appreciated. You can show your appreciation for your long-term clients (and build their loyalty) by decreasing the prices you charge them, either on a one-time basis or permanently.

* You want to get new work. One way to get new business is to drop your prices for new customers as a way to introduce them to your company and your products and services.

* You want to extend a professional courtesy. Doctors, lawyers, and other professionals are noted for extending lower prices to colleagues as a professional courtesy. Why not extend lower prices to your colleagues, too?


Read more: http://www.dummies.com/how-to/conte...aches-to-effective-pricing.html#ixzz0hW8KRhd5

Good solid advice and much shorter to read! :D
 
Hi Trent,

The 5th Edition of "The Strategy of Pricing...." comes out on March 8th.
Price: $57.65 & this item ships for FREE with Super Saver Shipping:eek:

I find the PRICE of The Strategy and Tactics of Pricing to be slightly ironic :unsure:

I'm curious as to what Holden and Burton says about "price skimming"?
Does they break it down into "regular" price skimming and "sequential " price skimming?
Most of the info I have found only talks about sequential price skimming
 
Hi Trent,

The authors were paid for their work and possibly receive a royalty for their work. So they probably had nothing to do with setting the price. But yes it is ironic that about book about pricing seems, on the surface at least. To have an arbitrary price. However, I suspect that a great deal of research went into achieving this price.

For those who aren't aware of what price skimming is. Simply put:

Price skimming is an important managerial tool for maximizing firm value. Its attractiveness is straightforward: by sequentially lowering price over time, capturing more customers with every price drop, a company realizes more revenue than it would if it set one price to capture the same number of customers.

A central assumption of price skimming is that each customer is satisfied with his or her purchase because the price paid is at or below his or her reservation price. However, beyond the purchase decision, there is scant research on customers’ postpurchase responses to price skimming.

Price skimming, whether regular or sequential is generally not a pricing strategy employed by a custom knife maker or dealer.

Primarily because by a systematic lowering of the price would have a negative affect on the the knife being sold. Thereby reducing the number of potential buyers...not increasing it.

Probably the most common (but usually without the knowledge of but the single seller and single buyer) "skimming" occurs between 2PM and the close of the show on Sunday. As nothing has sold and the maker is desperate to make a sale.

Long before Dale Reif became a pariah within the custom knife community I was a dealer for his knives. Dale went to a show in Wisconsin and sold a knife to a collector for less than the retail price. He had a slow show and needed the money.

I had just placed an order for several of these knives. Dale assured me that he would never sell his knives for less than his retail price.

So how did I find out about this...on Bladeforums. As the buyer posted on Sunday night he had gotten Dale's newest knife at an incredible price (less than dealer).

The next day I let Dale know I was canceling my order and would not be buying any more knives from him. Integrity issues aside, Dale by selling this 1 knife to this collector had, in fact, set a new de facto price on this knife.

I have no doubt that this knife model with the new "skimmed" price would have netted more customers. The problem is that those who had bought from him would never buy from him again. This of course would negate any potential from the unintentional "skimming".

Then again in Corporate America every product goes through the "life cycle" so price adjustment through skimming would be a natural progression. But only if you follow it up with the "new and improved" product. This would alleviate some of the bad will that skimming creates among early adopters. As they would now have the opportunity to purchase the next latest and greatest "widget". A percentage coupon would go even further to ingratiate those same early adopters of your previous product.

In other words, figure out a price, maintain that price, increase that price as the opportunity avails itself.
 
That pricing guide helps some; but most of my material is free. Its the time I put into it that really counts. Don't get me wrong I really love making knives and have no problem spending all day doing it, but I have bills to pay and a two other jobs that take up a lot of my time.
 
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