The one thing you don't want to hear at the Gate.

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I have something left to say and I believe it answers Ray's original statement. :)

It is my prayer that some Christians (the ones who judge and or condemn others) will not be judged according to their own measure. This is what I am asking of the Father and I believe my prayer will be answered.

I was led to this by my own understanding of Matthew 7.
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Well-Known Member
Again, I stress that this is the Christian forum in which we believe the Christian Bible is entirely authorized by God and it is Divinely authored and free from error and contradiction. That is the basis of this forum and most of us that post here. It's the instruction manual for our entire faith.

Claiming to be a Christian but denying the truths in the Bible just doesn't square up, no matter how you slice it. Tai has done that in spades.
Here is where I feel that you are incorrect. Christianity as a whole is based on the belief that Jesus is the Son of God, Dies for our sins and is the path to Heaven, ect (obviously not inclusive, just paraphrasing).

A three minute read into the simplest of sources,Wikipedia, states the following:

"Protestant Christians believe that the Bible is a self-sufficient revelation, the final authority on all Christian doctrine, and revealed all truth necessary for salvation. This concept is known as sola scriptura.[SUP][93][/SUP] Protestants characteristically believe that ordinary believers may reach an adequate understanding of Scripture because Scripture itself is clear (or "perspicuous"), because of the help of the Holy Spirit, or both


Protestants stress the meaning conveyed by the words of Scripture, the historical-grammatical method.[SUP][97][/SUP] The historical-grammatical method or grammatico-historical method is an effort in Biblical hermeneutics to find the intended original meaning in the text.[SUP][98][/SUP] This original intended meaning of the text is drawn out through examination of the passage in light of the grammatical and syntactical aspects, the historical background, the literary genre as well as theological (canonical) considerations.[SUP][99][/SUP] The historical-grammatical method distinguishes between the one original meaning and the significance of the text. The significance of the text includes the ensuing use of the text or application. The original passage is seen as having only a single meaning or sense. As Milton S. Terry said: "A fundamental principle in grammatico-historical exposition is that the words and sentences can have but one significance in one and the same connection. The moment we neglect this principle we drift out upon a sea of uncertainty and conjecture."

I am assuming that this is the brand of Christianity that you believe in.

However a few paragraphs up it reads

Catholic and Orthodox interpretations
In antiquity, two schools of exegesis developed in Alexandria and Antioch. Alexandrine interpretation, exemplified by Origen, tended to read Scripture allegorically, while Antiochene interpretation adhered to the literal sense, holding that other meanings (calledtheoria) could only be accepted if based on the literal meaning.[SUP][86][/SUP]
Catholic theology distinguishes two senses of scripture: the literal and the spiritual.[SUP][87][/SUP]
The literal sense of understanding scripture is the meaning conveyed by the words of Scripture. The spiritual sense is further subdivided into:
· the allegorical sense, which includes typology. An example would be the parting of the Red Sea being understood as a "type" (sign) of baptism.[SUP][1Cor 10:2][/SUP]
· the moral sense, which understands the scripture to contain some ethical teaching.
· the anagogical sense, which applies to eschatology, eternity and the consummation of the world

You are defending your beliefs in a particular slice of Christianity, trying to discredit someone else’s and to me it comes across as intolerant.

J. Doyle

Dealer - Purveyor
Here is where I feel that you are incorrect.
Then I guess I could turn your whole point right back around on you...right? :)

So if the Bible is open to anyone's interpretation, at any point, any part of it can be interpreted to mean literally anything by any one, then what is the point? How do you know which of it is absolute and which you can interpret any way you want? Was Jesus just a metaphor for something else of your or my choosing? Is God? If hell is a metaphor and not something real, then heaven can be too right? Where do you draw the line? How do you know? You are free to believe that if you want to.

By the way, I don't know what you believe because you really haven't told us anything about your interest in this. You have posted some info from Wikipedia, which I'll be honest, I don't view as any authority on anything, much less Bible interpretation or which groups do what. I actually couldn't care less about that.

Without absolutes, there is no truth. Anyone can take it to mean anything they want...sure. But if every man can interpret the Bible any way he wants, then what is truth? It ceases to exist in that case.

But Jesus says:

John 8:31-32

[SUP]31 [/SUP]Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;
[SUP]32 [/SUP]And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

There Jesus said His Word was the truth. How can that be if it's not absolute, if we can take it anyway we want?

And John 16:13
[SUP]13 [/SUP]Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

And John 18:37
[SUP]7 [/SUP]Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.

And 1 John 5:6
[SUP]6 [/SUP]This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth.

Again, Jude calls us to 'earnestly contend for the faith':

Jude vs 3
[SUP]3 [/SUP]Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.

So what truth is Jesus talking about and what faith does Jude refer to? The gospels, the epistles of Paul in the New Testament, the Old Testament, the prophetic books....the whole complete Word of God.

You cannot separate God from Jesus from the Holy Spirit from the Word. This starts to become a circular conversation. You either believe the Bible or you don't. It's really that simple.


Well-Known Member
That's your take on it and that is fine. It is not everyone's take on it and that is fine too. It does not and should not impact your beliefs and your beliefs do not or should impact others differing beliefs. You can put up walls and wall of scripture quotes, it just does not change my point, nor does my personal spiritual beliefs have any impact on my point.

Tolerance is not a zero sum condition it which one person has to be wrong in order for someone to be right and vise versa. It is something that can be elusive and difficult to achieve.


It is within God’s perfect will for everyone to go to heaven. :)

God can not be outdone by humans.

I believe that if even one small child with an innocent and pure heart could pray and forgive the entire world (even the bad guys), no conditions, no questions asked, and believes that they all will go to heaven,… then, it will be so!

Jesus made it possible!

I can say for myself that this prayer has been sent many times, before the age of accountability, and I still do. I’m sure there are many others as well.

I was led to this belief from things I learned from Sunday school. :)
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J. Doyle

Dealer - Purveyor
You can put up walls and wall of scripture quotes, it just does not change my point,...

Tolerance is not a zero sum condition it which one person has to be wrong in order for someone to be right and vise versa. It is something that can be elusive and difficult to achieve.
Likewise, anything you find on wikipedia and post doesn't make the Bible any less true.

One thing I'm curious about is where does this idea of 'tolerance' come from? Jesus was not tolerant of those that went against his teachings, nor was he tolerant of the gods and idols and images of the heathen. And He certainly won't be tolerant of worldly religions when he reigns again as King on this earth.

You know..........if you believe that sort of thing.

The difference is, Christians, as a 'religious group' in general, aren't out beheading those that don't believe what they believe. But no where in the Bible does it say that Christians have to be tolerant of other religions. Just the opposite in fact. Again...if you believe in that sort of thing.

I'd say we ARE Indeed pretty tolerant here. In any other forum I know of, posts that aren't on topic or related to the subforum get moved to an appropriate place or deleted. This Christian forum is a place for us to gather and share and fellowship with each other and almost every time a thread is started here, it gets derailed, trolled, trashed, belittled and mocked, yet it's allowed to happen, time and time again. I'd say that fits the definition of tolerant. And before anyone can say that's not true, it's happened here in this very thread numerous times by several people.

But I'm going to digress at this point, for now, because clearly some of you don't believe the Bible and a lot of us do. Like I said, you either believe it or you don't.

Raymond Richard

Forum Owner & Moderator
I have something left to say and I believe it answers Ray's original statement. :)

It is my prayer that some Christians (the ones who judge and or condemn others) will not be judged according to their own measure. This is what I am asking of the Father and I believe my prayer will be answered. I was led to this by my own understanding of Matthew 7.
Tai, Your prayer has been answered. You really need to work on your spiritual vision. You really are blind to what is going on here. These people are trying to help you see.

There's mention several times about opening the eyes of our heart in God's Word. The eyes of your heart will give you spiritual vision. In order to have spiritual vision you need to want to have it.

Dear Lord Jesus, Please remove the scales from Tai's eyes just like you did for Paul. Tai really has a great heart but it can't see. I ask this one thing in your name. Amen

I pray for myself to Lord and ask your forgiveness for I know that you sometime cringe at the things you see or hear me do. I am so thankful that you dwell in my heart

and that you have paid the price for me. The Lamb of God, the perfect sacrifice. My sins have been taken away because of you. I thank you so much. Amen


I think Mr. Jones made an excellent post (#83). If you haven't clicked on the *sola scriptura* link and read the whole thing yet, I'd highly recommend it. I've brought it up before and it just got swept under the rug. I hope that doesn't happen this time.

Brad Lilly

Moderator and Awards Boss
[h=1]Internet troll (wikipedia)[/h]In Internet slang, a troll (/ˈtroʊl/, /ˈtrɒl/) is a person who sows discord on the Internet by starting arguments or upsetting people, by posting inflammatory,[SUP][1][/SUP] extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community (such as a newsgroup, forum, chat room, or blog) with the deliberate intent of provoking readers into an emotional response[SUP][2][/SUP] or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion,[SUP][3][/SUP] often for their own amusement.

I think I'm going to lock this up until Calvin is back and can review it and decide what to do with it. We are going nowhere fast at this point. I think it is in everyone's best interest to refrain from posting threads along similar topics until Calvin is back.
God bless
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