The one thing you don't want to hear at the Gate.

[J. Doyle]

Tai, to take another approach.....you are aware of and believe in the Holy Spirit. From where did you learn about, hear about or experience the spirit?

And what was it that makes you feel the Spirit is female?

I have my description of the Holy Spirit from the Bible. And though I've felt the presence of the Comforter, I've not seen His face. But I know from scripture what it is I'm experiencing and also that according to the Word, it is He.

 

[One]

I believe that She has been with me from conception, but maybe didn't realize it until much later. No particular event for me to point to. It's just something I believe. I feel Her in my heart and believe She touches me, feeds me and teaches me through Love, everyday.

Without Her, I never would have been born, the first time.

Please try to respect this.

 

[One]

My spiritual Heavenly Mother Loves all Her children. Everyone!

 

[J. Doyle]

But then you have no basis for making the Holy Spirit female. Have you ever seen 'her' whoever she is? Because she is not the 'He' that we are talking about when we speak of the Holy Spirit.

It's hard to respect the concept of you making the Holy Spirit that we love and follow as Christians, something He is clearly not. Yet you say you 'know' the same God, Jesus and Spirit that the rest of us do. How is that not a contradiction in light of the scripture we've posted here?

Here's what I see: You slightly derailed this whole thread in the very second post, the first response to the original post, by claiming that no one goes to hell. According to the Bible, you're clearly wrong. You didn't support your position with any scripture reference, Bible verse or any other text for that matter. You didn't even really state why you believed that. When enough people and enough Bible passages got posted that you couldn't possible refute the idea further, you dropped it and moved on.

You then made a couple dramatic statements about you leaving, but didn't, which is fine and we could have all predicted that probably. Then you decided to stir the pot some more and make a statement about part of the Holy Trinity being female, which we all know (again through MANY scripture references) to be false. I have to believe even you know that. I think you just wanted to ruffle some feathers. But again, you offer no references, no text nothing even tangible at all to support your statement and why you believe that. And I'd about bet that after enough scripture is posted or enough people come in and dispel what you're saying with Bible truth, you'll leave that topic and start something else, should this thread run long enough.

Your statements are nothing more than your own ideas and therefore, in this discussion baseless. It's hard to see how it warrants any merit.

Of course, in the scope of our discussion we're using the Word of God as proof, certainly as a base from which we draw support for our discussion points.

I can respect you as a person and you're right to believe anything you wish. Clearly you struggle with the Christian faith and I'd have to conclude that you and I serve two different G(g)ods.

 

[One]

I believe things of a spiritual nature are outside of space and time, but also exist within every moment. There is an *outside and inside* to them. They are *past, present and future*. Certain spiritual events that happen along our timeline are also *retroactive*, in the moment and in the future. It is both circular and linear.

 

[J. Doyle]

I believe things of a spiritual nature are outside of space and time, but also exist within every moment. There is an *outside and inside* to them. They are *past, present and future*. Certain spiritual events that happen along our timeline are also *retroactive*, in the moment and in the future. It is both circular and linear.

Tai, this is more of that mysticism that I mentioned earlier in this thread. Where do you draw this from? And how is it relevant to this conversation?

Doesn't this quote seem vague and elusive to you?

You can understand how the Christian people in this forum could easily think you're just playing a game here, right?

Not to mention it sounds like a line Kevon Nealon said in 'Happy Gilmore'.

 

[One]

I think when Jesus said, "take the plank out of your own eye", it could mean something like, *use your own head*. I do believe we are called to do that, to some degree.

 

[J. Doyle]

Bummer....I thought we were getting somewhere but you're right back to avoiding questions, being vague and elusive. It's really difficult to have a serious discussion with you because of those things. It seems like anytime you feel the pressure of someone trying to get a straight answer on a specific topic out of you, you resort to these kind of things.

I think when Jesus said, "take the plank out of your own eye", it could mean something like, *use your own head*. I do believe we are called to do that, to some degree.

You really like quotes from the Bible, for seeming to not believe a large part of it. Do you really think that this quote ^^^ means decide for yourself what the bible means? That seems pretty vague and confusing and leads me back to:

[h=1]1 Corinthians 14:33King James Version (KJV)[/h] [SUP]33 [/SUP]For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.



I think that quote means before you judge someone for their small issue, you might want to clear up the huge issue in your own life. Which by the way, no one is doing here. Pointing out scriptural truth is in no way judging a person.

If you like quotes, how about these:

[h=1]2 Peter 1:16New International Version (NIV)[/h] [SUP]16 [/SUP]For we did not follow cleverly devised stories when we told you about the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ in power, but we were eyewitnesses of his majesty.

John 1:1
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God and the Word was God."

Here we have two separate things identified, God and the Holy Spirit (the Word), linked together as one and the same.


John 1: 14
"And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father) full of grace and truth."

Now we have the Word, (God), made flesh (Jesus) thus linking Jesus as the Word, the Word already linked as God, with God. Three in one.....the trinity, though 'trinity' is not used in the Bible. The concept outlined here could not be plainer.

Further,

1 John 5: 7
"For there are three that bear record in Heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one."

I guess I was wrong, the concept COULD be plainer. :smile:

And,

1 John 2:23
"Whoseover denies the Son, the same has not the Father: he that acknowledges the Son has the Father also."

[h=1]John 10:30King James Version (KJV)[/h] [SUP]30 [/SUP]I and my Father are one.


Do you have any thoughts on those? Certainly these aren't the versus you've used to explain 'our' Holy Spirit.......right?

 

[One]

John, I believe in the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. I believe that Jesus died for our sins, that He is the Son of God and the first born of the Holy Spirit.

I think that should be enough according to your own doctrines and teachings…

I'd like to be your friend.

 

[J. Doyle]

Tai, this has nothing to do with being friends.....which I'm not opposed to. That's a separate thing and I can keep them apart. Just like not agreeing here doesn't affect the appreciation I have for your knives and you as a craftsman.

What you don't believe that we keep stating is that God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit are one. You believe that Jesus is the Son of God but you don't believe He is the same as God, He IS God. Even though the Bible is abundantly clear on that. Further, you believe that the Holy Spirit is female which would make the Spirit a different entity than God and again, the Bible is crystal clear on that. According to the Bible, you're flat out wrong on that.

And if you believe the Bible is flawed, then you have no texts or physical evidence whatsoever to base your claims on which is simply you choosing to state what you came up with as truth. That's the issue we're all having I think. You are free to think as you wish but you shouldn't keep saying we're the same and believe the same things because we don't.

It may seem trivial to you but it makes all the difference in the world to the Christian principle. God offered Himself for a sacrifice for us.

It's points like that which stir up controversy. But you know that.

 

[JMJones]

I wonder into these type of threads on occasion and generally find them unappealing.
The major issue in these type of threads (and these arguments in general) is that one side (John and others) have stated that they Believe the Bible is the Truth, completely accurate, unerring, ect. It is evident that Tia does not Believe that exact same thing. Therefore all the bible quotes you can come up with do not prove your Belief or disprove his Belief. Since the whole thing is based in Belief and not objective facts, arguing in circles, trying to discredit someone else’s beliefs and pretending that your personal beliefs are any more valid than any others seems pointless. Now if two people subscribe to the same significantly similar belief system, then discussing or arguing the minor points seems reasonable and possibly enlightening but for two different belief systems it just does not seem compatible.

 

[CQbaum]

I wonder into these type of threads on occasion and generally find them unappealing.
The major issue in these type of threads (and these arguments in general) is that one side (John and others) have stated that they Believe the Bible is the Truth, completely accurate, unerring, ect. It is evident that Tia does not Believe that exact same thing. Therefore all the bible quotes you can come up with do not prove your Belief or disprove his Belief. Since the whole thing is based in Belief and not objective facts, arguing in circles, trying to discredit someone else’s beliefs and pretending that your personal beliefs are any more valid than any others seems pointless. Now if two people subscribe to the same significantly similar belief system, then discussing or arguing the minor points seems reasonable and possibly enlightening but for two different belief systems it just does not seem compatible.

Then why 'wonder' into this 'type' of thread? And if you really comprehend what you are reading you would see that Tai does imply he subscribes to the same belief as John and the rest of us 'others'. Tai implies he believes in the same things Christians do but doesn't believe certain things about the Bible that the Christian Bible clearly shows him to be in error. That is what has been being pointed out to Tai. You should also see that Tai interjected himself into this thread, not the other way around.

Tai is either just stirring the pot deliberately or he is picking what he wants out of the Bible to make himself feel good.

 

[J. Doyle]

I wonder into these type of threads on occasion and generally find them unappealing.
The major issue in these type of threads (and these arguments in general) is that one side (John and others) have stated that they Believe the Bible is the Truth, completely accurate, unerring, ect. It is evident that Tia does not Believe that exact same thing. Therefore all the bible quotes you can come up with do not prove your Belief or disprove his Belief. Since the whole thing is based in Belief and not objective facts, arguing in circles, trying to discredit someone else’s beliefs and pretending that your personal beliefs are any more valid than any others seems pointless. Now if two people subscribe to the same significantly similar belief system, then discussing or arguing the minor points seems reasonable and possibly enlightening but for two different belief systems it just does not seem compatible.

This is the Christian forum, where our Christian beliefs and the Christian Bible are generally accepted as truth and on topic. So the points in the Bible we are discussing are on topic here.

Quite unlike this post which adds not much besides another side debate. We are standing up for the Christian faith and the truths contained therein. If you don't believe that the Bible true and is the basis for this whole forum in the first place, then it might be better to start another thread on that.

This is a forum for us to specifically share our Christian beliefs. We're not 'bible thumping' or cramming our beliefs down anyone's throat all over the rest of our knifedogs forum. And I doubt anyone in this Christian forum is going to a specifically muslim forum and disputing and attacking the quran (how do you think that would go over by the way?) but when someone comes here into our CHRISTIAN forum and attacks or misquotes the Bible, we're supposed to just roll over and take it, right?

Like CQbaum said, you don't have to post here if you don't want to be involved.

Respectfully,

John

 

[JMJones]

As to why I read topics like this from time to time, I am interested in a variety of things, I guess I think maybe I will read something different, but as I indicated it is often not the case.

Tai has stated pretty clearly that he believes some of the same things that John and others do and does not believe other things. That is not the same as implying that he is of the "same belief". Many, many people and denominations identify as Christians that do not all have the exact same belief system.

 

[JMJones]

This is the Christian forum, where our Christian beliefs and the Christian Bible are generally accepted as truth and on topic. So the points in the Bible we are discussing are on topic here.

Quite unlike this post which adds not much besides another side debate. We are standing up for the Christian faith and the truths contained therein. If you don't believe that the Bible true and is the basis for this whole forum in the first place, then it might be better to start another thread on that.

This is a forum for us to specifically share our Christian beliefs. We're not 'bible thumping' or cramming our beliefs down anyone's throat all over the rest of our knifedogs forum. And I doubt anyone in this Christian forum is going to a specifically muslim forum and disputing and attacking the quran (how do you think that would go over by the way?) but when someone comes here into our CHRISTIAN forum and attacks or misquotes the Bible, we're supposed to just roll over and take it, right?

Like CQbaum said, you don't have to post here if you don't want to be involved.

Respectfully,

John

I have not even stated my faith. Nor did I say anything to disparage your beliefs or mention anything about cramming down throats or bible thumping.

I did not see Tai attacking or misquoting the bible, just sharing his personal beliefs. The fact that it differs from yours is irrelevant. We are all allowed to pursue our own beliefs. My sole point is that there are many differing beliefs, even within Christianity and being tolerant caring and understanding is more productive than trying to prove your beliefs are correct and someone else's are not.

 

[J. Doyle]

Read closer John. Tai has said many things that are directly contrary to what the Bible clearly says, while claiming to believe the same things as most of us here. That's the issue.

He got the ball rolling with post #2, saying that no one goes to hell and says it's not real. That isn't difference of opinion nor am I trying to force my beliefs on him. That's a direct contradiction to the Bible.

And also, my post that you quoted was not necessarily directed at you personally. Sorry if that's how it came across.

Again, I stress that this is the Christian forum in which we believe the Christian Bible is entirely authorized by God and it is Divinely authored and free from error and contradiction. That is the basis of this forum and most of us that post here. It's the instruction manual for our entire faith.

Claiming to be a Christian but denying the truths in the Bible just doesn't square up, no matter how you slice it. Tai has done that in spades.

 

[Jeremiah Rostig]

Read closer John. Tai has said many things that are directly contrary to what the Bible clearly says, while claiming to believe the same things as most of us here. That's the issue.

He got the ball rolling with post #2, saying that no one goes to hell and says it's not real. That isn't difference of opinion nor am I trying to force my beliefs on him. That's a direct contradiction to the Bible.

I agree with JMJones, and of course I am with Tai, it is not about reading closer, it is about interpretation and again: it is about tolerance......that is more than just ignore statements like You did....like in the topic "somethingh to think about"...there I researched a statement that You simply ignored and refused to comment...I still wondering about that...and dont come with the argument it is not the topic...You and Tai looking at a dice , he looks at the number one, You see the number six but You both still looking at a dice .....so Pope Francis is what in Your eyes?...a dice charmer?...the evil?...
http://eponymousflower.blogspot.com/2013/11/c-8-cardinal-advisor-1-cardinal-marx.html....

Right, this is the Christian forum and it is clearly visible that You believe in a prevention of a development that leads away from the dark ages, and dont talk about contradictions , and yes ,I insinuate that You are not free of them.
To me it just looks that You are afraid to believe in the wrong direction and be punished for error...it is like it is ...fear and punishment.
To me believing in hell is just bad energy and the bible is no proof,..it is written by man, and this fact is packed with evidence.

with all due respect.

 

[Jeremiah Rostig]

Unfortunately, believing in me isn't going to save anyone.....
.................
[SUP]4 ...............[/SUP]For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

........ But I also care about the souls of all of those perusing the internet looking for truth and guidance that may stumble upon our little forum here and read some of the things that just aren't of good sound Christian doctrine..

...... and even outright lies .....,.

I felt not shure to mention this, but after all those "Chrtistianity" I decided not to ignore and comment this:

1.You are kidding and confusing yourself with the One to believe in?......some kind of presumptuous joke?.....

2....as I understand, this is what You apply onto us?:.. we are the men that crept in unawares, that ungodly men that turned the grace of our God into denying lasciviousness?.....

3....saving those poor souls ,stumbling over our little forum, from who.....from us?....You are the chosen saviour?

4.....so we give misinformation and lie outright?.....

Well, You do not call us names but You have a certain kind of reactionary way to hurt, that borders an insulting.

Thanks for that.

 

[Brad Lilly]

You do realize the portion of John's post that you found insulting was a quote from the book of Jude? I'm not going to apologize for what the Bible says and I doubt John is either. There is a lot of stuff in the Bible that offends people

Lets go back to the first post in this thread Ray was pointing out the fear of not getting into heaven. On a Christian forum that is biased on Biblical truths, context is everything. Tai comes in and disagrees based on how he feels, not on scripture. So way back at the beginning we have opinion clashing with Christianity. As I stated before Tai can believe what ever he likes but

1) Don't say people who believe the Bible are wrong or try to twist what the Bible says out of context.

2) Don't say we all believe the same thing and therefore are all the same. When clearly we are not.

If you want the unvarnished truth God sent his son to earth to die for the redemption of sinful people. (that is everyone) You can believe that or not choice is yours. Everyone on this forum is going to die that is also a fact. Weather someone chooses to prepare for death or not is up to them. How and what each of us dose before we die is personal so again it is up to each of us.

I'm going to repeat this again. Nobody said that Tai was not free to believe what he wants and nobody wants to insult Tai. However what he thinks is true clashes with Christian beliefs, there can be no common ground.

1.You are kidding and confusing yourself with the One to believe in?......some kind of presumptuous joke?.....

2....as I understand, this is what You apply onto us?:.. we are the men that crept in unawares, that ungodly men that turned the grace of our God into denying lasciviousness?.....

3....saving those poor souls ,stumbling over our little forum, from who.....from us?....You are the chosen saviour?

4.....so we give misinformation and lie outright?.....

Well, You do not call us names but You have a certain kind of reactionary way to hurt, that borders an insulting.

John never once pointed to anything other than JESUS. I want to point that out very plainly, because you are trying to twist his words. To come into the Christian forum and make light of the very core beliefs that we hold to is very insulting to Christians, not to mention you are directly insulting John. As has been stated before many times believe what you want but don't call something Christian that is not

 

[J. Doyle]

Hi Jeremiah, I would have bet everything I owned that you'd show up here last night.

I'll repeat this because it fits perfectly:

This is a forum for us to specifically share our Christian beliefs. We're not 'bible thumping' or cramming our beliefs down anyone's throat all over the rest of our knifedogs forum. And I doubt anyone in this Christian forum is going to a specifically muslim forum and disputing and attacking the quran (how do you think that would go over by the way?) but when someone comes here into our CHRISTIAN forum and attacks or misquotes the Bible, we're supposed to just roll over and take it, right?

Like CQbaum said, you don't have to post here if you don't want to be involved.

I don't even know how to respond to your very last post here because it's such a poorly chopped conglomeration of several different quotes by me that referred to specific DIFFERENT issues, yet you've somehow managed to twist them into one confusing mass.

Brad's right....I absolutely WILL NOT apologize for posting the truth. If what I quoted from Jude offends you personally, maybe that's the Holy Spirit needling at your conscience??

However, the passage in Jude more fits Tai as he does use Christianity as a banner but denies some real truths. "Having a form of Godliness but denying the power"- 2 Timothy 3:5

I maybe wouldn't be offended if I were you because you don't "creep in unaware"-(Jude vs 4) you come in here to our Chrisian forum guns blazing and stand in open defiance to Christianity and the truth. You don't use the banner of Christianity to subtly pollute the truth. Your position on the topic is quite clear.

It's always interesting to me that there are those that come in to these threads and vehemently defend someone or something but it's soley based on emotional opinion. Never do they provide any quotes, texts or any physical evidence to consider that support their position or how they came to the 'beliefs' on their side. We're at least drawing from the Bible as a foundation. It's a book thats been around for a LONG time and even by MOST unbelievers it's considered to at least have special character, not like ordinary books.

When someone comes in here and defends the other side but won't state what they believe and why and the foundation they're drawing from, it's all just baseless verbosity pulled from thin air.

Tai, deserves some credit because at least he will share his position and discuss it, to some degree albeit very vague at times.

Which reminds me Jeremiah, do you care to share your position on the topic? Or did you just come here to rescue Tai (though I doubt he needs rescuing)? Or do you just come here to openly bash Christianity?

The Bible contains PLENTY of things to support it's truth and validity....historical things, predictions that have come true with stark and amazing accuracy...with dates of writing that even Non Christians must concede had been written long before they happened. But I'm not going to debate the legitimacy of the Bible with you Jeremiah.

1 Corinthians 1:18King James Version (KJV)

[SUP]18 [/SUP]For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

If you don't believe the things we're posting about the Bible, then I ask again, what is your purpose here besides stirring trouble? You came to 'our house' so to speak......we didn't bring this debate to YOUR door.