The one thing you don't want to hear at the Gate.
- Thread starter Raymond Richard
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*Eternity* is outside of space and time, yet also exists within every moment.
Hell is non-existence. Heaven is existence.
Tai, to say Hell is non-existence is denying the truth of Gods word. Hell does exist and is a very real place of torment first for satan and his angels for whom it was created but also for those who die without Jesus as Lord and Savior of their lives. Hell is eternal existence for the soul forever separated from God. Gods word is VERY clear about that. To say hell is non existent is to say Christ died on the cross for no reason
Then you may as well not believe anything in the Bible at all. The fall, man's sin, damnation, and his need for salvation are at the very root of everything the Bible teaches us.
I'm not trying to be judgemental, but the truth is the truth.
If there is no hell/lake of fire/whatever name you give it, then we need no salvation. If we need no salvation, then Christ's death and resurrection is without purpose, and meaningless.
I don't know where or how you came to your beliefs, but I pray that you are misguided, and confused, not someone intentionally sewing disinformation and falsehoods. God is a god of love, but He is also a god of justness, and I truely fear His judgement on any who would intentionally mislead others.
One
Banned
I think what it means to go to hell for *eternity* is,... that you NEVER existed,.. or it will be as though. I don't know how the Father pulls it off, but have faith He will and is doing it right now. It is beyond my understanding, but I can live with it.
(Sorry for all the edits, but I have OCD.)
(Sorry for all the edits, but I have OCD.)
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Bill Hubbell
KNIFE MAKER
So, I am assuming the above belief is one of John's beliefs that you see say "unhealthy and unfit" for you to accept? (the belief that some people may spend eternity in hell)?
And, I fear that you may be right- the truth that there is an eternal hell prepared for those who reject Christ and His atoning blood on the cross as the only way to Heaven... will prove to be very unhealthy indeed for those poor soles.
I hope and pray that you are not that person, Tai.
It's interesting how many people I've met that fully embrace the concept of Heaven, but at the same time refuse to accept the biblical description of Hell. If there is no eternal Hell, why would Jesus go to the cross- if not to spare us from that just reward for our sins? The story of Lazarus & the rich man (Luke 16:19-31) gives a clear depiction of the two opposite destinations, and states that there is no way for a man to pass from one to another once he has arrived at either (for eternity).
You may be right, Tai. I am hopeful that as you continue to read God's (divinely inspired and preserved) Word, that you will fully come to realize our hopeless state without the sacrifice of a spotless lamb (sinless as God) once and for all who will 'believe' in Him. Until that time, I fear that you, as I was, are an enemy of God, and will be subject to the just reward of one in such a position.
Please don't take this as a personal attack, or an attempt to reject you and your eagerness to discuss 'truth'. However, you must realize that this is, by name and nature, a Christian forum, and that by being here you will encounter those who hold strong to Christian truths and will devote endless hours and study to the discovering and preservation of those truths. In my opinion, it seems that many of your beliefs run counter to what God's Word teaches, so... don't be surprised if those beliefs are met with opposition and rebukes. Whether you continue to be part of that is up to you, but you certainly do give occasion for discussion. But, I hope and pray that it results in more than that for you.
"For the message of the cross is foolishness for those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God." I Cor. 1:18
Bill
J. Doyle
Dealer - Purveyor
Then what is the point of us being here at all? If we have no knowledge or reward or after life then why did Christ die for us?
And if hell isn't real, what do you think is the meaning of "Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched" in the following passage?
Mark 9:43-48King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]43 [/SUP]And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
[SUP]44 [/SUP]Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
[SUP]45 [/SUP]And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
[SUP]46 [/SUP]Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
[SUP]47 [/SUP]And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:
[SUP]48 [/SUP]Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
And certainly, your idea that someone who dies without Christ as their savior just simply ceases to exist and has no conscious knowledge of life at all is clearly disproved here:
Luke 16:19-31King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]19 [/SUP]There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:
[SUP]20 [/SUP]And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,
[SUP]21 [/SUP]And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.
[SUP]22 [/SUP]And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
[SUP]23 [/SUP]And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
[SUP]24 [/SUP]And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
[SUP]25 [/SUP]But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
[SUP]26 [/SUP]And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
[SUP]27 [/SUP]Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
[SUP]28 [/SUP]For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
[SUP]29 [/SUP]Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
[SUP]30 [/SUP]And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
[SUP]31 [/SUP]And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.
J. Doyle
Dealer - Purveyor
I think that you all have a lot of good questions and if you are sincere about them, keep asking and I will too.
Our 'questions' are directed at you Tai, because of the things you say that are contrary to the Bible, which is the topic here. But you know that. This response is a perfect example of your passive/aggressive redirection of the focus.
It also implies that 'we're all in this together', which again, clearly we are not.
[h=1]Matthew 10:28King James Version (KJV)[/h](Jesus speaking
[SUP]28 [/SUP]And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Here we have a clear distinction between the death of the physical body and the soul (which can't be killed, words right from the mouth of Jesus) and the clear existence of hell. Just in one single verse.
Not a lot of gray area there, it'd be pretty hard to misinterpret that verse.
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J. Doyle
Dealer - Purveyor
[h=1]Matthew 23:33King James Version (KJV)[/h] [SUP]33 [/SUP]Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?
Again, words from Jesus' mouth. Speaking to the pharisees, who were notorious for having an outward display of religion and works according to the law of the Jew, but did nothing to address the fall of man, personal sin and the need for a sacrifice for themselves in order to be justified and redeemed.
Again, words from Jesus' mouth. Speaking to the pharisees, who were notorious for having an outward display of religion and works according to the law of the Jew, but did nothing to address the fall of man, personal sin and the need for a sacrifice for themselves in order to be justified and redeemed.
I think what it means to go to hell for *eternity* is,... that you NEVER existed,.. or it will be as though. I don't know how the Father pulls it off, but have faith He will and is doing it right now. It is beyond my understanding, but I can live with it.
(Sorry for all the edits, but I have OCD.)
But Tai, that is not biblical, the Word of God as John and others have posted clearly proves that hell is real and despite what anyone thinks or believes, is where lost and unrepentant souls will spent eternity. And while the Word of God states that it's not Gods will that any should perish, the Word also states that many have and will perish and spend eternity in hell, separated from God forever. Not by Gods choice but by their own.
To echo Johns sentiment, don't go, striving for the Truth is always a good thing, especially when it involves Gods Word.
One
Banned
Since you’ve invited me back, then O.K.
Here’s what you seem to be saying...
#1. The bible is your God.
#2. Your faith is absolutely dependent on others going to hell.
#3. You have a closed group with a license to sin, which is only for people who believe as you do.
I’ve been there, and I tried it. It was/is toxic and I do not believe it is what the true Word of God is trying to teach us.
Here’s what you seem to be saying...
#1. The bible is your God.
#2. Your faith is absolutely dependent on others going to hell.
#3. You have a closed group with a license to sin, which is only for people who believe as you do.
I’ve been there, and I tried it. It was/is toxic and I do not believe it is what the true Word of God is trying to teach us.
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J. Doyle
Dealer - Purveyor
Since you’ve invited me back, then O.K.
Here’s what you seem to be saying...
#1. The bible is your God.
#2. Your faith is absolutely dependent on others going to hell.
#3. You have a closed group with a license to sin, which is only for people who believe as you do.
I’ve been there, and I tried it. It was/is toxic and I do not believe it is what the true Word of God is trying to teach us.
#1: Yes.
[h=1]John 1:1King James Version (KJV)[/h] 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
#2: The Bible is as clear on a real hell for the wicked and unbelievers as it is on Heaven for those who believe in Christ and his redeeming work on the cross. We've posted a lot of scripture to this point in this thread already.
#3: Absolutely not. Christianity is for everyone and no one, even Christians, has a license to sin.
[h=1]Romans 6King James Version (KJV)[/h] 6 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
[SUP]2 [/SUP]God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
[SUP]3 [/SUP]Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
[SUP]4 [/SUP]Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
[SUP]5 [/SUP]For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
[SUP]6 [/SUP]Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
Since you’ve invited me back, then O.K.
Here’s what you seem to be saying...
#1. The bible is your God.
#2. Your faith is absolutely dependent on others going to hell.
#3. You have a closed group with a license to sin, which is only for people who believe as you do.
I’ve been there, and I tried it. It was/is toxic and I do not believe it is what the true Word of God is trying to teach us.
That is not what I am saying at all.
1. The Bible is Gods Word to us. It is our road map, our guide our directions from God.
2. My Faith is dependent on taking God at HIS WORD. That God WILL DO what HE has said He would do in and through HIS Word.
3. Christians do NOT have a license to sin. Christians DO have a Savior in Jesus Christ who gave His life in sacrifice so that through him ANYONE who asks God to forgive them of their sins and accepts Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior of their lives will have eternal LIFE through Christ.
Accepting Christ as Lord of ones life does not in any way give a person a "license to sin", quite the opposite.
J. Doyle
Dealer - Purveyor
Hey wait a minute......NOW its 'you'. What happened to 'us'.
Tai, just razzin' you here. I am completely just making a joke.Now we've got something here. Some ground we agree on. You're absolutely right, this is a perception that many have, and not without justification. The sad fact is, this issue does exist, or at least forms of it, in religious groups that use Christ and Christianity as a banner.
It IS a problem indeed. And it isn't Biblical. It's one of more than a few evil doctrines that have polluted God's truth. The problem is, 'doctrines' should be adopted from the instructions laid out on the Bible. Not ones that are formed and introduced by man.
Now we're starting to touch on the things that separate Christianity from 'religion'.
Taking money (or other measures) to 'pay' for sin is bad news. A 'tax' so that you can keep following your worldly or fleshly desires is certainly not taught in the Bible. It is a concept that ignores the fact that Christ paid for our sins on the cross, but also ignores His teaching on asking forgiveness for our sin and the idea of repentance.
The death of Jesus made Him our intercessor, or High Priest that defends our sin before God in Heaven, when Satan the great accuser accuses us before God. Jesus' sacrifice took away the need for the Levitical priests of Isreal under the law. The grace of the cross made it so that no priest or mediator need approach God for us. Jesus IS now the intercessor, the Son of God but also God himself. "The Father and the Son are one." So we have direct access to God.....why? So we can approach him ourselves for FORGIVENESS and REPENTANCE! Something we must do by nature of being indwelt with the Holy Spirit, which also IS God and among other things, convicts us of our sin, bringing about a humbled spirit and leading to a mindset of repentance.
Thus...the reason that when Christ died on the cross, the veil to the Holy of Holies, which hid the High priests private access to the altar of God was torn in two completely. It was no longer private and hidden because a priest was no longer necessary for us to access the altar of God. Jesus became that High Priest and mediator for us.
Hopefully you can start to see the importance and practicality of the Holy Trinity and also because of the above example, what an abomination to God it is to pay money or say tributes or whatever else for sin.
One
Banned
See, we do agree on some very important things.
I might view the Trinity slightly different though. I do believe in the divinity of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. However, I see the indwelt Holy Spirit as more feminine than masculine. God’s divine family also extends to us, through the indwelt Holy Spirit. She is there inside, to comfort and help us and never will abandon or leave us as orphans. She is so beautiful to behold!
The number in God's Family is much larger than three.
I might view the Trinity slightly different though. I do believe in the divinity of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. However, I see the indwelt Holy Spirit as more feminine than masculine. God’s divine family also extends to us, through the indwelt Holy Spirit. She is there inside, to comfort and help us and never will abandon or leave us as orphans. She is so beautiful to behold!
The number in God's Family is much larger than three.
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See, we do agree on some very important things.
I might view the Trinity slightly different though. I do believe in the divinity of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. However, I see the indwelt Holy Spirit as more feminine than masculine. God’s divine family also extends to us, through the indwelt Holy Spirit. She is there inside, to comfort and help us and never will abandon or leave us as orphans. She is so beautiful to behold!
The number in God's Family is much larger than three.
Yes Tai, there are those who profess to be Christians that prey on others for profit in the name of God. God will deal with those and they will reap what they sow just as the Word of God pronounces, God is not mocked. But those who are truly sensitive to the Spirit of God will recognize the wolves who prey on Gods people. And unfortunately it is a bad reflection on those who truly love God.
I know there are a lot who think of the Holy Spirit in the female sense but again that is not how the scripture refer to the Holy Spirit. Believe as you may Tai but I will stick with the way Gods Word describes.
[h=1]John 15:26King James Version (KJV)[/h] [SUP]26 [/SUP]But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:
John 16:13
"But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come.
J. Doyle
Dealer - Purveyor
Yep. There are other passages as well that refer to the Holy Spirit with the pronoun 'He'. And since the Bible is also clear that God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit are one, the fact of the matter is the Holy Spirit is 'He'.
People are free to believe whatever they want...absolutely. The real issue that gets people's hackles raised is the halfway stuff. When someone says they believe most or some of the Bible, but not all of it, they become a huge walking contradiction. That's exactly what the passage I posted about the 7th church at Laodicea was refering to. Hot or cold, either way, would be better than lukewarm. And we see the judgement that falls there.
Believe what you (not Tai here but 'you' in the general sense) wish, but if you (general) profess to 'know' the Lord and profess to be a Christian, it absolutely is an all or nothing deal as far as the Father, the Son, the Holy Spirit and the Word. There is no other way IF you profess to believe.
People are free to believe whatever they want...absolutely. The real issue that gets people's hackles raised is the halfway stuff. When someone says they believe most or some of the Bible, but not all of it, they become a huge walking contradiction. That's exactly what the passage I posted about the 7th church at Laodicea was refering to. Hot or cold, either way, would be better than lukewarm. And we see the judgement that falls there.
Believe what you (not Tai here but 'you' in the general sense) wish, but if you (general) profess to 'know' the Lord and profess to be a Christian, it absolutely is an all or nothing deal as far as the Father, the Son, the Holy Spirit and the Word. There is no other way IF you profess to believe.
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