The art of heat treating
- Thread starter Kevin R. Cashen
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Bush Monkey
Guest
The "metrics" of heat treating "science".
A single sentence: Not everything that can be counted counts, and not everything that counts can be counted.
~Albert Einstein
A single sentence: Not everything that can be counted counts, and not everything that counts can be counted.
~Albert Einstein
bubba-san
Well-Known Member
I have been watching this thread with interest... I agree that heat treating is science but, not an exact science . Metallurgy is a branch of
theoretical Chemistry . A lot of therums in metallurgy are theoeretical not law . If it were an exact science you would not have to check your RC when HT a blade , you would already know ! it would be an exact number, not within 61-63 rc as a reference point.
theoretical Chemistry . A lot of therums in metallurgy are theoeretical not law . If it were an exact science you would not have to check your RC when HT a blade , you would already know ! it would be an exact number, not within 61-63 rc as a reference point.
One
Banned
Artistic process:
http://www.thinkingapplied.com/artistic_process_folder/artistic_process.htm#.UoEH6KTn_mQ
“Artistic process transcends subject area. Apply it to any endeavor and that endeavor will become an art”
“The struggle to bring about an ideal state through elegant action underlies all true art.”
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I think the above might help shed some light on this quote from the first link I posted:
"Though the community of heat treaters is filled with scientists, metallurgists, and others in the materials sciences, the essence of this process is art. You heard me. Though heat treating demands a scientist’s approach to temperature, time and process, it also requires the touch of an artist—a delicate balance between competing desired outcomes, or characteristics, for a part."
Since the goal of science is the acquisition of a certain type of knowledge, and the goal of the artistic process is to bring about an "ideal" state to a material or medium,... I think the process of heat treating fits better as an art.
http://www.thinkingapplied.com/artistic_process_folder/artistic_process.htm#.UoEH6KTn_mQ
“Artistic process transcends subject area. Apply it to any endeavor and that endeavor will become an art”
“The struggle to bring about an ideal state through elegant action underlies all true art.”
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I think the above might help shed some light on this quote from the first link I posted:
"Though the community of heat treaters is filled with scientists, metallurgists, and others in the materials sciences, the essence of this process is art. You heard me. Though heat treating demands a scientist’s approach to temperature, time and process, it also requires the touch of an artist—a delicate balance between competing desired outcomes, or characteristics, for a part."
Since the goal of science is the acquisition of a certain type of knowledge, and the goal of the artistic process is to bring about an "ideal" state to a material or medium,... I think the process of heat treating fits better as an art.
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bubba-san
Well-Known Member
You are correct , without any artistic endeavors all blades would look pretty much the same . If Ht was pure science then, everyone could
ht a samurai sword . I mean there have been thousands of posts telling the reader how easy it is ...... but, its not easy and there is a large
pile of scrapped blades in everyones shop. Ht is science , and art is the aspect that goes into making yours unique . I have never followed a ht chart , I do my ht in the evening . I want to explain why this is done at dusk ...... You can see the color and you will be able to see if the blade is fully heated . Nothing magic Just common sense and ART>>>>>>>
ht a samurai sword . I mean there have been thousands of posts telling the reader how easy it is ...... but, its not easy and there is a large
pile of scrapped blades in everyones shop. Ht is science , and art is the aspect that goes into making yours unique . I have never followed a ht chart , I do my ht in the evening . I want to explain why this is done at dusk ...... You can see the color and you will be able to see if the blade is fully heated . Nothing magic Just common sense and ART>>>>>>>
One
Banned
Metallurgy is the science behind the art of heat treating.
Aesthetics is the branch of philosophy behind art. Aesthetics also apply to the process, not just the end product.
... In theory, the more beautiful the process, the more beautiful the product.
Since beauty is subjective, we have diversity,… and multiple valid paradigms or approaches to the process of heat treating.
Aesthetics is the branch of philosophy behind art. Aesthetics also apply to the process, not just the end product.
... In theory, the more beautiful the process, the more beautiful the product.
Since beauty is subjective, we have diversity,… and multiple valid paradigms or approaches to the process of heat treating.
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One
Banned
We have some great heat treating "artists" on Knifedogs, though they may not recognize or conceptualize it as such,... but that's O.K. 
That part doesn’t seem to be necessary, but it is interesting from an academic point of view. Many primitive and ancient cultures had no concept of "art", but according to contemporary academic and scholarly thinking,… they still produced some great art!
It’s not necessary to think of yourself as an artist in order to be one.
... "You're a poet, but you just don't know it."
That part doesn’t seem to be necessary, but it is interesting from an academic point of view. Many primitive and ancient cultures had no concept of "art", but according to contemporary academic and scholarly thinking,… they still produced some great art!
It’s not necessary to think of yourself as an artist in order to be one.
... "You're a poet, but you just don't know it."
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bubba-san
Well-Known Member
We sure do ... some great artists here for sure . Ancient cultures knew little about science or mettalurgy , in the sense thier mettalury was not nearly as advanced when comparing it to modern steelmaking etc: It was more like " thats the way my Grandfather taught me " The beautiful artwork on some blades is an outgrowth of trying to reach perfection..... Science and artistry go hand in hand .....
One
Banned
They must have understood physical and psychological actions and reactions, but thought about them and explained them differently than we do today. In many cases, they didn't have a concept of art or science, but still did them.
... You don't have to think of yourself as a scientist in order to be one.
... You don't have to think of yourself as a scientist in order to be one.
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bubba-san
Well-Known Member
Absolutely they understood actions and reactions . I understand some ancient cultures considered Bladesmiths on the same level as the village witch doctor. Most thought they had some mystic links ! I guess if you had never seen a blade curve while quenching in water , you might think it was some blackmajic ....... It sure looks like majic . And beautiful at the same time .. Bubba
N.N
Well-Known Member
So my "art" this weekend involved some 1095, vegetable oil, charcoal and a blow dryer. This is actually the first time I've backyarded 1095. 1084 and tool steel seem to work pretty good for me this way. I pulled the 1/8" 1095 out of the fire and it was already non magnetic down the length. Much quicker mind you, than the tool steel heats up. I stuck it back in for a few minutes while I ran the cat off (the cat was actually drinking my quench oil), heated the oil, tested magneticness again, then quenched immediately. Since I'm new to this, so do you think this worked? I know you can't tell me that, so maybe I should ask....this should work, correct?
As for the artsy-fartsy side of this HT, I'm claiming the cat. I mean, who else uses cat saliva?
As for the artsy-fartsy side of this HT, I'm claiming the cat. I mean, who else uses cat saliva?
bubba-san
Well-Known Member
You are definitely on the right track. I use carbon steel on most of my blades . Used to crack a lot of blades until Parks 50 came around, I used water
Lately been using 20 weight non- detergent oil .It is polymer based, Does a pretty good job and has same viscosity as parks ... 1095 and 1084 are pretty easy to ht . I dont see a problem . But a little luck goes a long way ....... Bubba
Lately been using 20 weight non- detergent oil .It is polymer based, Does a pretty good job and has same viscosity as parks ... 1095 and 1084 are pretty easy to ht . I dont see a problem . But a little luck goes a long way ....... Bubba
One
Banned
I think a lot of it just had to do with keeping trade secrets. They made stories up (and/or stories were made up about them), because they didn't want the competition to know what they were actually doing...
Thankfully, we are much more transparent these days and there is a wiliness to share honest information.
ChuckBurrows
Well-Known Member
The three "laws" of prediction formulated by the British writer Arthur C. Clarke. They are:
1.When a distinguished but elderly scientist states that something is possible, he is almost certainly right. When he states that something is impossible, he is very probably wrong.
2.The only way of discovering the limits of the possible is to venture a little way past them into the impossible.
3.Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.
1.When a distinguished but elderly scientist states that something is possible, he is almost certainly right. When he states that something is impossible, he is very probably wrong.
2.The only way of discovering the limits of the possible is to venture a little way past them into the impossible.
3.Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.
scott.livesey
Dealer - Purveyor
we make car parts, drive axle assemblies. the end pieces, the one that goes in the wheel the other in the transaxle, are forged where I work. we will forge about 14million parts this year. the forged parts are shipped to the next town over where they are machined and heat treated. those parts are sent to a 3rd location where they are assembled into units ready to attach to a car(ford, honda, toyota)
scott
Mark Behnke
Well-Known Member
bubba-san
Well-Known Member
Most of the stories were made, as you say is to protect trade secrets . The japanese fought many battles over who made the best swords
and knives . The five great schools of smithing " Gokaden " they were constantly at each other throats over some pretty silly things ...
funny how things really have not changed much ??? Old Arthur Clark , he was one of the best hard science fiction writers of our times
"
"Rendezvous with Rama" was some of his best work . He could take you right there ... You can take Blade made by an artist and one made by scientist and I could not see any substantial difference !!!!!!
and knives . The five great schools of smithing " Gokaden " they were constantly at each other throats over some pretty silly things ...
funny how things really have not changed much ??? Old Arthur Clark , he was one of the best hard science fiction writers of our times
"
"Rendezvous with Rama" was some of his best work . He could take you right there ... You can take Blade made by an artist and one made by scientist and I could not see any substantial difference !!!!!!
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