The art of heat treating

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This is going so fast and, I have made numerous edits to clarify some of my posts. Please, go back, read, think about it, give it a little time and maybe at least some of it will make sense.

I'm not on a crusade and have nothing to prove, but I am interested in the well being of the community and the art of heat treating and knifemaking.

It is a fascinating topic, but we all need a little peace of mind as well...

Let's just sleep on it, K?
 
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PT Doc

Well-Known Member
One said:
If you ever think you have attained "perfection", it's over.
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I feel that perfection is constantly evolving. If today, I set some clear and measurable standards, then it is possible to achieve my perfection. If say, in twenty years, my experience and expertise evolve, it is possible to achieve perfection if using my previous standard. So, it can be achieved. But it is likely that twenty years from today, my definition of perfection will have evolved. You can hit a moving target sometimes, but if you are honest with yourself then many folks will likely not be able to achieve their own perfection. But, it would be easy to say that another maker has achieved a level of perfection if their ability is superior to your own.

Just sayin :)
 
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KenH

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I guess it depends on the definition of "perfection". Per Miriam-Webster: " something that cannot be improved : something that is perfect"

Ken
 
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I think perfection just exist in the mind.

All of the arts have been studied scientifically, but that doesn't make them all sciences. A body of facts and principals in and of themselves do not constitute a science or an art.

The distinctions made between disciplines have to do with their ultimate goals.

Heat treating is a process used to impart certain properties to materials and you can look at it however you like. In the end it boils down to the same thing.
 
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scott.livesey

scott.livesey

Dealer - Purveyor
I guess home made knife making is the only place that would consider heat treat an ART. At the office, it is just another process, between turning threads and cutting splines. the process is as automated as possible, temperature of materials held to smallest possible variation. emphasis on speed, thru-put, consistency and doing it as cheaply as possible. most of the electric or gas furnaces are gone, replaced with induction heaters. all quenching is done with water based quench that is safe to put down the sink. when you talk with the HT engineers, all they are interested in is shaving a second here while using less power with cheaper quench.
just the observations of an old sailor
Scott
 
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PT Doc

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scott.livesey said:
I guess home made knife making is the only place that would consider heat treat an ART. At the office, it is just another process, between turning threads and cutting splines. the process is as automated as possible, temperature of materials held to smallest possible variation. emphasis on speed, thru-put, consistency and doing it as cheaply as possible. most of the electric or gas furnaces are gone, replaced with induction heaters. all quenching is done with water based quench that is safe to put down the sink. when you talk with the HT engineers, all they are interested in is shaving a second here while using less power with cheaper quench.
just the observations of an old sailor
Scott
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What industry do you work in, out of curiosity? Sounds interesting.
 
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KenH

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Tai, I agree art is not able to be truly defined by science. If it could, a computer could paint the Mona Lisa. While I consider knife making very much an art because that allows free expression in shape, line flow - your imagination is the only limit. I guess that's where the fantasy knives come into play?

Now, heat treating - that's science. If a chunk of metal is of the exact same mix, then the temperature, time, quench should all be the same, then the end results should be VERY close to the same from blade #1 to blade #100.

Edit to add: I typed this up an hour ago, got sidetracked (wife) and forgot to click "Post" button. I see Scott has already made much the same comment.

Ken H>
 
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I don't see it as art vs science. We can look at it either way, but should leave room for other folks paradigms as long as they hold some validity, reasoning and logic.

Maybe in the grand scheme of things heat treating is neither art nor science... or maybe a type of vehicle for either. I guess it's really up to the individual, but for sure it isn't magic.

I like to look at it as art,... because that's my ultimate goal.
 
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… a thought that slipped my mind...

If an academic discipline is marked by it’s ultimate goal, maybe we should consider this...

If ultimate goal of science is the acquisition of knowledge about the physical/natural world, and the ultimate goal of heat treating is to impart certain properties to materials,.. then the process of heat treating really doesn’t fit in as a science.

Maybe that’s the real reason it isn’t considered a science… maybe it's just that simple.

... just saying.
 
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… I’m not sure if this thread is finished or not,… but just want to thank Kevin and the Knifedogs community for their tolerance and letting it take it’s course so far.
 
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Doug Lester

Well-Known Member
If heat treating is truly an art, as you say, it's because it depends on the blending of scientifically established principles as in microscopic cracking occur at the intersection of plate martensite plates and the more plate martensite the more these microscopic cracks can occur decreasing toughness in the steel. Through science we know what will increase and retard grain growth and what will give more abrasion resistance and what that abrasion resistance will cost you with another characteristic. The blending of all these characteristics that go into knife making is an art. The science of metallurgy establish what these characteristics are thus make up the basis for the art. One cannot be divorced from the other.

Doug
 
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KenH

Well-Known Member
Tai, I respect your work and knowledge, and I do consider your knives true works of art that I can only dream of coming close to the same level of skill. I will agree back when the only way to heat treat was by watching the color to determine when to quench, and before knowledge of quenchants came to be - then I do think we could call heat treating "art", because two different folks could follow as close as possible the same directions using steel from the same chunk, and still have different results. Then, as with any artist, it took years of knowledge and experience to be good at heat treating and consistently produce good blades.

Today, with all the knowledge and equip we have, With no real experience, I can take a chunk of steel (say Sandvik 12C27) that has been shaped to some blade shape, put steel in an electric oven, program desired temperature for length of time, clamp blade between to aluminum plates, bake in oven for spec'd temp and time - end result will be will be a very good blade that would be very close to spec'd results for this steel. When results can be consistently be duplicated by the use of instruments, it's no longer "art" but "science".

None of the above says that factory specs for heat treating can't be improved on to produce a better blade, BUT - anyone can take the better method and reproduce same results by use of modern instruments. I am certainly open to someone showing how these results can not be reproduced.

This has been a very good discussion that has remained civil - and I do hope to learn LOTS more from this group.

Ken H>
 
Fred Rowe

Fred Rowe

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I'm very comfortable when I apply heat to steel. It took years to get here. If the steel type is known, along with the alloys, I know what the steel is undergoing as it is being heated or cooled over time. Fifteen years ago I looked at heat work more as a matter of luck along side that gut feeling that says your right.

I thought I was being artful in both cases; but there is a difference. The first was more art than science, the second more science than art. The first the outcome was unknown during the process, the second the outcome was known from the start; it was only a matter of applying the science in and artful manner.

Fred
 
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These are all valid views but, believe it or not,... I'm trying to represent conventional contemporary thinking within the greater scientific, historic, artistic,... or academic community on this topic. I'm trying to bring knifemaking up to date and into the mainstream flow.
 
Fred Rowe

Fred Rowe

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When it passes from theory, after exhaustive testing, to scientific fact, I don't see whats left. Its factual. This is about as conventional and contemporary as it gets and its dated as well since we'er dealing with the latest scientific facts that come with the study of metallurgy.
 
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Trying to make heat treating more scientific is O.K., but saying "heat treating is science" is equally wrong as saying heat treating is magic.

... This isn't the dawn of the industrial revolution or the period of modernism. We're way past that now. Green technology and greater environmental awareness is the direction we need to be heading in.
 
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Fred Rowe

Fred Rowe

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One said:
Trying to make heat treating more scientific is O.K., but saying "heat treating is science" is equally wrong as saying heat treating is magic.

... This isn't the dawn of the industrial revolution or the period of modernism. We're way past that now. Green technology and greater environmental awareness is the direction we need to be heading in.
Click to expand...
Hopefully we have acquired the wisdom to deal with the changes needed. We can surprise ourselves sometimes. We may do so in this as well.
 
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