Kevin R. Cashen
Super Moderator
Want to discuss your feelings about the topic and other more subjective topics? Go ahead knock yourself out. But keep it friendly, with no cheap shots, pot shots, bomb throwing, flaming etc...
The art of heat treating
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racjarrett88
Well-Known Member
If someone ever stops improving they should quit. Just Saying Tai
One
Banned
I agree. If you ever think you have attained "perfection", it's over.
I guess it's not restricted to heat treating and I don't think heat treating should be isolated from the other aspects of cutlers art. It's about the whole package.
I've never thought anything I made was perfect and it was never the goal. The goal for me has always been personal expression and life implies change. So, the expressions grow and evolve, and change is inevitable. When a concept or series has been played out and whatever statement has been made to my satisfaction, I move on to something else,... make a paradigm shift or whatever you want to call it. It's just not a straight line.
A lot of people would probably say that I've already done my "best" work,... but I still believe the "best" is yet to come. In the long run though, good or bad, it will be up to the art historians and critics.
As an artist, I am perpetually dedicated to quality and excellence.
I guess it's not restricted to heat treating and I don't think heat treating should be isolated from the other aspects of cutlers art. It's about the whole package.
I've never thought anything I made was perfect and it was never the goal. The goal for me has always been personal expression and life implies change. So, the expressions grow and evolve, and change is inevitable. When a concept or series has been played out and whatever statement has been made to my satisfaction, I move on to something else,... make a paradigm shift or whatever you want to call it. It's just not a straight line.
A lot of people would probably say that I've already done my "best" work,... but I still believe the "best" is yet to come. In the long run though, good or bad, it will be up to the art historians and critics.
As an artist, I am perpetually dedicated to quality and excellence.
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Kevin R. Cashen
Super Moderator
Everybody needs to stop now, both the veiled jabs and the open ones. I am really trying to keep this thread going and working so that the rest of the heat treat forum can go about its business. Nobody is more tempted than I am to just get some things off my chest but if I can keep it together for the good of the forum I think we all can.
One
Banned
Here’s an example of what I'm talking about:
Some people have made a conscious informed/educated decision to work exclusively with salvaged and recycled steels. I’ve experimented with it, (but not exclusively), so I understand it. The decision to go that route is not based in science or metallurgy, but is more a cultural and social decision. To a large degree this will change their methodology, and approach to the science and heat treating side of it. It will usually require a lot more “do it yourself” type science than some of the more convention approaches. It’s by no means necessarily less scientific, less professional or inferior,… just a different paradigm. Success and validity will be measured by how well they live up to their own standards, and how well their work is received by the public,... not by some other makers standards who are working within a different paradigm.
Some people have made a conscious informed/educated decision to work exclusively with salvaged and recycled steels. I’ve experimented with it, (but not exclusively), so I understand it. The decision to go that route is not based in science or metallurgy, but is more a cultural and social decision. To a large degree this will change their methodology, and approach to the science and heat treating side of it. It will usually require a lot more “do it yourself” type science than some of the more convention approaches. It’s by no means necessarily less scientific, less professional or inferior,… just a different paradigm. Success and validity will be measured by how well they live up to their own standards, and how well their work is received by the public,... not by some other makers standards who are working within a different paradigm.
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Interesting thread...
My first dozen or so knives were made from recycled/salvaged steel, and I still like to play with files and springs occasionally. I see it as a challenge to see what kind of performance I can eek out of it, and in the process improve my backyard testing abilities. I have no hardness tester or the ability to see what is happening on a microscopic level, but then again, there are simple tests that I can run a blade through that give reliable feedback on its cutting ability and strength, along with a basic understanding of heat-treating basic uncomplicated steels so I know where to tweak the process. One can get lost in it, trying to get that extra 2% performance out of a leaf-spring or file... There are indeed aspects of both art and science involved when precision testing equipment is unavailable.
Now that I no longer own the largest collection of 'Ezell Made' knives on the planet, I rarely have the time to go through the process and prefer to use steels of known composition so there is less guesswork involved in getting the best out of the steel that I am able, reliably. My testing procedure has vastly improved over the years, largely due to using the occasional steel of unknown origin... and should the zombie apocalypse come soon and I can no longer order my steel from Aldo and Kelly, I'll be ready to switch back to the spring, file, or coveted sawmill blade....
Or even the humble railroad spike, at least for throwing knives. That **** can't be polished, even if you stabilize it first...
My first dozen or so knives were made from recycled/salvaged steel, and I still like to play with files and springs occasionally. I see it as a challenge to see what kind of performance I can eek out of it, and in the process improve my backyard testing abilities. I have no hardness tester or the ability to see what is happening on a microscopic level, but then again, there are simple tests that I can run a blade through that give reliable feedback on its cutting ability and strength, along with a basic understanding of heat-treating basic uncomplicated steels so I know where to tweak the process. One can get lost in it, trying to get that extra 2% performance out of a leaf-spring or file... There are indeed aspects of both art and science involved when precision testing equipment is unavailable.
Now that I no longer own the largest collection of 'Ezell Made' knives on the planet, I rarely have the time to go through the process and prefer to use steels of known composition so there is less guesswork involved in getting the best out of the steel that I am able, reliably. My testing procedure has vastly improved over the years, largely due to using the occasional steel of unknown origin... and should the zombie apocalypse come soon and I can no longer order my steel from Aldo and Kelly, I'll be ready to switch back to the spring, file, or coveted sawmill blade....
Or even the humble railroad spike, at least for throwing knives. That **** can't be polished, even if you stabilize it first...
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One
Banned
I think a lot can be learned and gained by changing the paradigm, but it also takes more courage than most people seem to be able to find. I have a lot of respect for those who can and think it's too bad they often come under attack by the more conventional types. I really don't see how it threatens the mainstream thinkers.
Another example is those who've made the decision to work "unplugged",... without gas, electricity, fancy HT equipment etc.
Another example is those who've made the decision to work "unplugged",... without gas, electricity, fancy HT equipment etc.
scott.livesey
Dealer - Purveyor
AAAAHHHHH YES, science vs. art in the world of manufacturing. Yes folks, IMHO, if we are making blades for sale, we are manufacturing. My backround is electronic repair with emphasis on repair and calibration of electronic test equipment. There is no ART involved, items must be tested, adjusted and aligned the same way, using established standards, every time. What a shock when I began working for plastic molding and steel forging operations. Yes they are science based. the steel must be at 1750F to forge properly, the plastic at 185F to mold and fuse. BUT, I can set up my machine with the same settings I used 2 weeks ago and not have a quality product. Press speed, steel temperature, lubrication amount and duration, maximum tonnage, and ....... all need to be tweaked to find today's sweet spot. We are talking high volume forging, 1000+ 4 pound parts every hour, 24/7, on average 150,000 parts per week; then to really make things interesting, 30 different parts are produced, with weights ranging from 1100 to 2650grams, from a school bell shaped part with a 4" diameter bell and a 2" diameter 5" stem to a part with flat sides and no stem.
So, I establish Old Sailor's Knives. I dont want to use art. I try to use the same steel from the same maker, that I can heat treat the same way every time. I know that if I heat the blade to 1475, make sure the temperature is even, soak as needed, quench in Fuchs quench oil that is 120F, then temper at 350, my Sheffield O1 blade will read Rc 62-63.
Art, art is the handle, finding that slice of wood with the most interesting grain pattern, mounted to the blade to show it's uniqueness. So, for me, precision ground flat stock from a known manufacturer, quench oil from an established industrial source, multiple pyrometers monitoring an electric kiln,...... Keeping it as scientific as possible. Art, Art is stainless steel or brass or hidden handle pins.
Just the ramblings of a tired old sailor glad to be home from the sea
Scott Livesey, US Navy(ret.)
So, I establish Old Sailor's Knives. I dont want to use art. I try to use the same steel from the same maker, that I can heat treat the same way every time. I know that if I heat the blade to 1475, make sure the temperature is even, soak as needed, quench in Fuchs quench oil that is 120F, then temper at 350, my Sheffield O1 blade will read Rc 62-63.
Art, art is the handle, finding that slice of wood with the most interesting grain pattern, mounted to the blade to show it's uniqueness. So, for me, precision ground flat stock from a known manufacturer, quench oil from an established industrial source, multiple pyrometers monitoring an electric kiln,...... Keeping it as scientific as possible. Art, Art is stainless steel or brass or hidden handle pins.
Just the ramblings of a tired old sailor glad to be home from the sea
Scott Livesey, US Navy(ret.)
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I for one, enjoy a bit of romance and "art" (what ever that is) in knife making. I get the science and heat treating is science but I also get gut feel, practical experience, hands on testing, etc.
I think there is room for both and that is our official policy here -- Tolerance of different ideas, theories, experiences and opinions. "Safe Harbor" posting is one of the reasons I opened KnifeDogs. Someone should NOT be subject to lynching simply for posting a message about knife making -- even if their opinion does not match up your personal experience or studied research.
What we don't have any tolerance for is personal insults and innuendo around someone's posted opinion -- even if you think it is junk science.
If it is junk science, state facts to prove otherwise or move onto another thread.
The other responsibility we all have here is don't be too sensitive if you perceive a slight was aimed at you or someone else. It's the internet and communication here lacks the non-verbal side where a written message maybe sent in a manner that was never intended. Occasionally, we get a keyboard bully that decides to put a stick in the ground here, they won't like it here and they won't last unless they change. That also is our "official policy".
Have fun, be respectful, share, learn.
t
I think there is room for both and that is our official policy here -- Tolerance of different ideas, theories, experiences and opinions. "Safe Harbor" posting is one of the reasons I opened KnifeDogs. Someone should NOT be subject to lynching simply for posting a message about knife making -- even if their opinion does not match up your personal experience or studied research.
What we don't have any tolerance for is personal insults and innuendo around someone's posted opinion -- even if you think it is junk science.
If it is junk science, state facts to prove otherwise or move onto another thread.
The other responsibility we all have here is don't be too sensitive if you perceive a slight was aimed at you or someone else. It's the internet and communication here lacks the non-verbal side where a written message maybe sent in a manner that was never intended. Occasionally, we get a keyboard bully that decides to put a stick in the ground here, they won't like it here and they won't last unless they change. That also is our "official policy".
Have fun, be respectful, share, learn.
t
One
Banned
The greatest advancement that heat treating has made in the recent past, is that it is no longer considered a “black art”. I think that is great! It’s not a black art, sorcery or magic,… but it is still art.
The big push has been to make heat treating “more scientific”, which is also good,… as long as we don’t lose site of it’s true nature and leave some room for all valid paradigms.
Paradigm: : a theory or a group of ideas about how something should be done, made, or thought about.
... If you don't believe me, I invite you to research this fascinating topic with it's colorful art history through to the present, on your own, (with an open mind),... and see for yourselves.
You may need to look outside the knifemaking community and more into convectional science and the scientific community in general.
The art history is equally as fascinating and well worth the effort.
The big push has been to make heat treating “more scientific”, which is also good,… as long as we don’t lose site of it’s true nature and leave some room for all valid paradigms.
Paradigm: : a theory or a group of ideas about how something should be done, made, or thought about.
... If you don't believe me, I invite you to research this fascinating topic with it's colorful art history through to the present, on your own, (with an open mind),... and see for yourselves.
You may need to look outside the knifemaking community and more into convectional science and the scientific community in general.
The art history is equally as fascinating and well worth the effort.
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rhinoknives
Well-Known Member
Tai,
I am trying to contribute to this conversation in a positive way of course.
Your statement about Heat Treating being viewed as more Scientific doesn't seem to be very clear?
Here is Webster's definition.
sci·en·tif·ic Listen to audio/ˌsajənˈtɪfɪk/ adjective
1 : of or relating to science
▪ scientific techniques/knowledge/research ▪ the scientific community
2 [more scientific; most scientific] : done in an organized way that agrees with the methods and principles of science
▪ scientific thinking/reasoning ▪ a scientific approach — opposite unscientific
My take on this is that something is ether done in a scientific method with repeatable results or it is a black art or magic as you called it to shroud it in mystery?
Science calls for us to have a common view or paradigm, correct?
One
Banned
I said it is NOT a black art or magic according to recent advancements. This has been established and is good. This is "more scientific".
No, science and art do not call for us all to have a common paradigm. Just the opposite, they invite all valid paradigms, open mindedness, imagination, creativity, curiosity etc...
I suppose there was a day when all art and science were considered magic, but today,... that's just not the case. If you go back further in history into academics and scholarship, you will see that the two were once one. The superficial line that was drawn between the two had more to do with their ultimate goals,... science: the acquisition of a certain type of knowledge, and art: the personal expression or "manifestations" into physical reality according to those principals.
The two are quite inseparable...
"Just the two of us, building castles in the sky. Just the two of us, you and I."
No, science and art do not call for us all to have a common paradigm. Just the opposite, they invite all valid paradigms, open mindedness, imagination, creativity, curiosity etc...
I suppose there was a day when all art and science were considered magic, but today,... that's just not the case. If you go back further in history into academics and scholarship, you will see that the two were once one. The superficial line that was drawn between the two had more to do with their ultimate goals,... science: the acquisition of a certain type of knowledge, and art: the personal expression or "manifestations" into physical reality according to those principals.
The two are quite inseparable...
"Just the two of us, building castles in the sky. Just the two of us, you and I."
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rhinoknives
Well-Known Member
Tai,
Please understand I am not trying to argue, just establish the terminology.
Science calls for us to have a common belief in repeatable facts. In science it doesn't matter if you wear black robes and only heat treat at midnight on a full moon.
In magic, things like that may matter? Science is always opened minded to the facts because that is all it concerns.
Now if you enjoy heating treating at midnight on a full moon, go for it. It just will not have any bearing on the results.
Unless you can show a repeatable difference because you heat treat at midnight on a full moon in a black robe? Then it is science and not magic.
Please understand I am not trying to argue, just establish the terminology.
Science calls for us to have a common belief in repeatable facts. In science it doesn't matter if you wear black robes and only heat treat at midnight on a full moon.
In magic, things like that may matter? Science is always opened minded to the facts because that is all it concerns.
Now if you enjoy heating treating at midnight on a full moon, go for it. It just will not have any bearing on the results.
Unless you can show a repeatable difference because you heat treat at midnight on a full moon in a black robe? Then it is science and not magic.
One
Banned
I really don't know how I could make it more clear, with a few simple words...
Heat treating is no longer considered magic or a black art. There are repeatable, verifiable principles to it, but that in and of itself does not constitute a science... or for that matter an art. It's both and in that case lumped in with the arts. The "white arts". Science has shown some light on the subject and that is good.
Heat treating is no longer considered magic or a black art. There are repeatable, verifiable principles to it, but that in and of itself does not constitute a science... or for that matter an art. It's both and in that case lumped in with the arts. The "white arts". Science has shown some light on the subject and that is good.
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