My forge build.....WIP......it's going to take a while!

[KenH]

The joys of living in a HOA {g}, and in an urban area. While I'm in an urban area, I'm isolated enough I can do outside forging just fine. My forging doesn't make as much noise as shooting the old 45-70 does.

The coating over the koawood should be fully cured (as it is by end of day before applying the ITC-100. Remember to go light on each coat allowing a tad of drying between coats. From my reading slow curing of the ITC-100 isn't as critical as is the castable covering the kaowool. It seems firing the ITC-100 with small increments of heat as you've did with the castable.

If this isn't correct, please Ed chime in and keep both of us on correct path.

 

[jaxxas]

Well I fired it up again and while it gets hot fast something is wonky with mys PSI gauge.

First off there is only 3 major divisions between the 0 and the 5, secondly the readings keep changing. Maybe the heat affects it? Here are 5 pictures of the gauge in order from the time I fired it up over about a 25 minute span. In the beginning I was trying to adjust the gas to about 2-2.5 PSI. In the end I was trying to dial the gas back to maintain a lower forge temp.

After I get the videos uploaded I'll make another post....

 

[jaxxas]

OK the videos have finally uploaded, probably a bit of information overload.

5 min...

5 1.mp4

drive.google.com

10 min...

10 1.mp4

drive.google.com

15 min...

15-1.mp4

drive.google.com

20 min...

20-1.mp4

drive.google.com

25 min...

25-1.mp4

drive.google.com

30 min...

30-1.mp4

drive.google.com

Just FYI I did check the propane tanks when the gauge was going wonky and they were not frozen, no ice buildup that I could see. I think I need a better gauge with finer discrimination. Or maybe the heat is affecting the gauge? It is probably about 130 F where it's at while running!? Maybe a heat shield?

I was looking at this one or maybe you all have some ideas...

Winters PFQ Series Stainless Steel 304 Dual Scale Liquid Filled Pressure Gauge with Brass Internals, 0-15 psi/kpa,2-1/2" Dial Display, +/-1.5% Accuracy, 1/4" NPT Bottom Mount: Industrial Pressure Gauges: Amazon.com: Industrial & Scientific

Winters PFQ Series Stainless Steel 304 Dual Scale Liquid Filled Pressure Gauge with Brass Internals, 0-15 psi/kpa,2-1/2" Dial Display, +/-1.5% Accuracy, 1/4" NPT Bottom Mount: Industrial Pressure Gauges: Amazon.com: Industrial & Scientific

www.amazon.com

Overall the garage only got up to about 90 F with the cross ventilation, though it seems the motor on the squirrel cage has some kind of temp sensor and it did shut down at about the 20 minute mark or so. But it is a fairly old motor as well.

I didn't have a lot of success idling the forge back once I reached about 2400 F. At that point the blower damper was fully closed and the gas PSI was reading just about zero.

Tomorrow I think I will attempt the ITC-100!

 

[KenH]

Coat with ITC-100 so it forge will heat up better? {g}

I downloaded the videos so I could watch them. Sounds like the burner is really doing a good job. Note on that pressure gauge you've got the spacing between the zero and 5 mark, it looks like the first big mark is perhaps 2 psig? Note the 15 psig gauge you linked to the zero to 3 psig mark the zero to 1 mark is much smaller than the other 1 psig marks (from 1 to 2, 2 to 3, etc).

I can't see all the piping for the propane flow from tank to where it's injected to 3" blower pipe. Does your piping go like this: from propane tank, to propane regulator, then thru a hose to the pressure gauge. After pressure gauge, then to block valve (I think you said you had block valve?) then from block valve to needle valve for adjusting gas flow, then injected to 3" blower pipe?

If by chance the pressure gauge is downstream of the needle valve, move it back upstream of all the valve so it's the next item downstream of the propane regulator. Some folks will say pressure gauge needs to be at the outlet of regulator, while other folks will say pressure gauge needs to be just upstream of needle valve. Pressure gauge will work just fine either place.

Before I comment more comment where you pressure gauge is located please.

 

[KenH]

Just noticed on that pressure gauge link you can purchase 1 of the gauges for $20 each, but if you want a 5 pack they'll cost you $60 EACH! $300 for the 5 pack. Never understood that, but see it fairly often on Amazon.

 

[jaxxas]

Yes it's downstream I believe.

The layout is from the propane tanks
to the regulator
to the gas valve
to the needle valve
to the pressure gauge
then to the blower tube

???

 

[KenH]

Nope, move that pressure gauge back upstream so it's downstream of the regulator. Do you have a gauge on the propane regulator? You might be surprised how much pressure you're actually running on the forge once you move the pressure gauge upstream. You must have pretty high pressure from regulator to show 2 psig on the gauge.

 

[jaxxas]

Coat with ITC-100 so it forge will heat up better? {g}

I just now noticed this, it does seem kinda ridiculous, but then I already bought the ITC-100...

 

[jaxxas]

Note on that pressure gauge you've got the spacing between the zero and 5 mark, it looks like the first big mark is perhaps 2 psig? Note the 15 psig gauge you linked to the zero to 3 psig mark the zero to 1 mark is much smaller than the other 1 psig marks (from 1 to 2, 2 to 3, etc).

I noticed that on almost all the gauges I looked at. Not sure, maybe it
is related to the overall accuracy of 1.5% of total range?

 

[jaxxas]

Nope, move that pressure gauge back upstream so it's downstream of the regulator. Do you have a gauge on the propane regulator? You might be surprised how much pressure you're actually running on the forge once you move the pressure gauge upstream. You must have pretty high pressure from regulator to show 2 psig on the gauge.

Ok I don't understand this, I'll do as you say, haven't steered me wrong so far. But it doesn't seem to make sense to me.

So let me wrap my head around this, if I do this layout...

propane tank
propane regulator
pressure gauge
gas solenoid
needle valve
blower tube

Then when I adjust the needle valve the pressure gauge will show me what the gas pressure is entering the blower tube?

I really don't understand this!?

 

[jaxxas]

OK I been thinking this all over and what I'm coming up with is that it's the regulator that 'regulates' the pressure, the needle valve is just the orifice?

 

[KenH]

You got it right now - allow me to explain a tad more. I was about half asleep last night and didn't take time to explain and better phrase my words. With the pressure gauge as the last thing right at the blower tube, there is almost no back pressure in the propane. The back pressure is created by the restriction of the needle valve. The pressure you're really trying to measure is what the regulator is putting out, only way to measure that is to have pressure gauge as first item downstream of regulator. If you look at this link: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07GRFTR4S/ or this link: http://hightemptools.com/propaneregulators.html you'll see the pressure gauge mounted either just downstream of regulator, or on a port on the regulator. Most common for better regulators is to have a port to mount pressure gauge right on the regulator. Look at the regulator on a cutting torch, it's got two ports, one for upstream (tank) pressure and one for downstream (regulator output) pressure.

The output pressure of regulator can be measured at any point from output of regulator to first item that creates backpressure (needle valve, orifice, etc). Where the propane is injected to the blower tube there is almost no pressure at all as it's basically the pressure inside the blower tube. In order to get the pressure right at the blower tube at 2psig the regulator was cranking out pressure good pressure.

Did all this make it any more clear?

 

[EdCaffreyMS]

I just wanted to chime in on the ITC application.

VERY thin coat..... as in put a couple glob of the ITC into a mixing cup and add water until it's NOT THICKER than latex paint.....spritz the inside of the forge with water and then apply the ITC with a cheap paintbrush. Any thicker coat is wasting the ITC, and can be counter productive....and in it not reflecting heat as it's intended.

 

[KenH]

Thanks for chiming in Ed - knowing you're following this thread helps me have confidence if I give bad info you'll be there to provide good info. Thanks.

 

[jaxxas]

You got it right now - allow me to explain a tad more. I was about half asleep last night and didn't take time to explain and better phrase my words. With the pressure gauge as the last thing right at the blower tube, there is almost no back pressure in the propane. The back pressure is created by the restriction of the needle valve. The pressure you're really trying to measure is what the regulator is putting out, only way to measure that is to have pressure gauge as first item downstream of regulator. If you look at this link: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07GRFTR4S/ or this link: http://hightemptools.com/propaneregulators.html you'll see the pressure gauge mounted either just downstream of regulator, or on a port on the regulator. Most common for better regulators is to have a port to mount pressure gauge right on the regulator. Look at the regulator on a cutting torch, it's got two ports, one for upstream (tank) pressure and one for downstream (regulator output) pressure.

The output pressure of regulator can be measured at any point from output of regulator to first item that creates backpressure (needle valve, orifice, etc). Where the propane is injected to the blower tube there is almost no pressure at all as it's basically the pressure inside the blower tube. In order to get the pressure right at the blower tube at 2psig the regulator was cranking out pressure good pressure.

Did all this make it any more clear?

Yes, yes much more clear. I remember reading about the near zero pressure in the burner tube but it apparently didn't sink in until prompted by you! Thank you Sir!

So if I do this layout I should be good?

propane tank
propane regulator
gas solenoid
pressure gauge
needle valve
blower tube

It just works out better for my layout....


Also inspecting my forge this morning I discover that I did indeed melt steel as you predicted. The edge of my burner tube was evidently sticking out a bit too far. I have a narrow stream of cold on the floor of the forge. Not sure how this impacts the forge's future or the ITC-100 coating?

 

[jaxxas]

I just wanted to chime in on the ITC application.

VERY thin coat..... as in put a couple glob of the ITC into a mixing cup and add water until it's NOT THICKER than latex paint.....spritz the inside of the forge with water and then apply the ITC with a cheap paintbrush. Any thicker coat is wasting the ITC, and can be counter productive....and in it not reflecting heat as it's intended.

Thanks ED, I will certainly heed your advice!

 

[EdCaffreyMS]

You're gona hate this....but fair warning....if you try to cure the ITC by firing the forge..... it'll bubble up and fall off....then you'll be doing it again. I know everybody is anxious to use their new forges, but if you want one to last, you have to cure the refractories and coatings as slowly/naturally as possible. You can't see it now, but it's the difference in the refractory lasting 6-12 months..... or 5 years+.

 

[jaxxas]

You're gona hate this....but fair warning....if you try to cure the ITC by firing the forge..... it'll bubble up and fall off....then you'll be doing it again. I know everybody is anxious to use their new forges, but if you want one to last, you have to cure the refractories and coatings as slowly/naturally as possible. You can't see it now, but it's the difference in the refractory lasting 6-12 months..... or 5 years+.

No, I'm good with that, it took me 63 years to get this far! So are we talking days or weeks? And I have so many things on my to do list anyway.

Thanks Ed!

 

[KenH]

OK, you wrote:
propane tank
propane regulator
gas solenoid
pressure gauge
needle valve
blower tube

Not sure where the solenoid is connected now, but what about the gas solenoid mounted direct to regulator, then hose to pressure gauge, block valve, then needle valve to blower tube?

By having the solenoid connected direct to regulator you're protected if the hose breaks, gets cut, burns, etc.

 

[jaxxas]

OK, you wrote:
propane tank
propane regulator
gas solenoid
pressure gauge
needle valve
blower tube

Not sure where the solenoid is connected now, but what about the gas solenoid mounted direct to regulator, then hose to pressure gauge, block valve, then needle valve to blower tube?

By having the solenoid connected direct to regulator you're protected if the hose breaks, gets cut, burns, etc.

I think we are talking the same thing except for maybe the hose.

Currently this is the setup

propane tanks
regulator
hose (1st hose, not stainless but totally under the shelf)
gas solenoid
needle valve
pressure gauge (with 3 way block)
hose (2nd hose, stainless braided)
blower tube


And I'm proposing....

propane tank
regulator
hose (1st hose, not stainless but totally under the shelf)
gas solenoid
pressure gauge (with 3 way block)
needle valve
hose (2nd hose, stainless braided)
blower tube

My regulator is kinda tied to the tanks with the dual tank setup apparatus with those weird left hand threads and I need the gas solenoid to fix (it's the only thing that has a mounting base) the other components in place. Though I do see the beauty of having it mounted right off the regulator in case of the primary hose failure.

BTW I really love the solenoid, a quick flip of the switch and instant propane off. Much faster than a gate valve.