My forge build.....WIP......it's going to take a while!

[jaxxas]

When I said "old Harley" I was talking 1950's era panheads. The engines that were designed to leak oil - like an old hound dog, they always "marked their spot" {g} I rode Harleys from around 1963 or so until early '70s, then moved on to 750 Honda. Was out of bikes during the '80s, back to 750 around 92 or so, then got my first 1500 Goldwing in '97, traded it with 146K in 2003 for the 1800 goldwing, then traded in 2007 with 77K, and finally sold my last bike at 72 due to bad knees and back.

Light in end of forge for sure is coming - wish I was closer we'd have a "light 'er off" party {g}

I think maybe you are a bit before my time. I rode a panhead once, suicide shift with the jockey clutch, once was enough! I've actually had two basket cases, a pan and a knuckle but sold them before anything became of them. Several rat shovels sportsters, and a big twin each in a (AMF) shovel and an EVO, both that I rode quite a bit. Numerous Jap bikes filled in the gaps, dirt and otherwise. My last bike was a 94 soft tail, pretty sweet, sold it about 2004!

Well I bought a bottle of Tequila a couple of weeks back, so I'll be lit when the forge is! Com'n down!

 

[KenH]

That's suicide clutch and jockey (hand) shift. Suicide clutch so named because they were designed to hold clutch engaged by friction so you could put both feet down when stopped. Then the friction part wouldn't do it's job and with engine vibration the clutch would engage and surprise! Yea, that brings back memories.

I got my first Harley when I was 15, an old '55 FLH panhead. Ex-cop bike out of Memphis, Tenn. Kick start, be sure to retard spark or you could get kicked. Took all my 6 ft, 150 lb soaking wet body to kick that thing over. Looking back I can see I was sorta on the "wild side" in my teen years. Remember the primary chain cover on left side? Not only did I drag stuff on right side of bike in the hill country curves, but that primary chain cover would bent up a bit from dragging pavement. Nice shower of sparks at night {g}.

Bikes have been main transportation for many years. Normally 20K to 23K miles/yr on bike, 2K or 3K on cage. That's the years when I was working and we were gone sailing for coral reefs, coconut trees, and "brown breasted mattress thrashers" {grinning}, naw those didn't happen, had wife and two daughters with me when "gone sailing" to islands. Topless was pretty common in the cruising world.

Wish I would be there to share that bottle of tequila with you and talk motorcycles, knifes, Might even tell a lie or something {g}

Joe, here it is I've sidetracked your forge WIP. I do sometimes tend to ramble a bit and get off track.

 

[jaxxas]

I'm sure you are right, like I said I 'only' rode it once and it was relatively terrifying!

I have experienced the kick when lacking the retard on the ignition. Being a bigger guy I was always 'elected' to kick them over. Energetic to say the least and I've heard the horror stories!

I rode off and on for about 20 years, went down hard a couple of times and finally hung it up.

You bet, I've got lies aplenty (g) even a few true tales esp from my days as a prison guard. Some day Bro, some day!

 

[jaxxas]

Well it was a pretty short shop day but I got the few things I needed accomplished!

First I nearly finished up the tool rests. I say nearly because I'm still undecided about what I want the actual rest to look like or how it should function. I'm thinking angle iron as I might want to clamp something to it? It also crossed my mind that an adjustable height rest might be useful. Please chime in with your thoughts....

tool rests.jpg

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Then I put the kao wool back in the forge...

forge kaowool.jpg

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Kao wool in the end caps ready to cut...

ready to cut.jpg

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And here the end cap's kao wool has been cut and rigidized......

rigidized.jpg

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Also a question....

burner tube question.jpg

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I'm thinking I will leave this temporary burner tube in place when I install the castable, and as I understand it I want the burner tube to be just shy of the interior surface of the forge?

Things left to do.

Castable
Determine a drying and firing program for the castable
Thermo couple connection
Measure and trim the burner tube
Bolt down the forge cradle and strap down the forge.
Finalize the tool rest shelf

I'm sure I'm missing something.....

If my kao wool is dry tomorrow I hope to start the castable.....

 

[KenH]

Looks good to me, and I think you've got the right idea on the burner tube. I put my burner tube about a 1/2" or 1" back inside the insulation. Flush with insulation should be good, but if it sticks inside forge any the end of burner tube doesn't last as long before it gets burnt off. After removing the temp burner tube you might wish to use rigidize the inside of the insulation to be sure no loose fibers fly around. Don't allow the castable/rigidizer to stick to the burner tube so the temporary burner can be removed.

You're really getting close now.

 

[jaxxas]

Sounds good Ken, thanks!

I did cut my burner tube today. An my thermal couple parts are 'out for delivery' via UPS. I'm getting close!

My kao wool isn't close to dry and the rainy weather isn't helping. I won't be casting today, maybe tomorrow.

I was thinking I might cast my end caps separately from the main forge body? Good idea or bad? Caveats?

 

[KenH]

On casting the end caps - do you plan to make the end caps attached permenant? OR removable? If they're to be attached permenant, I think I'd attach permenant first, then do the castable. This would seal all the spaces between end cap and forge body as a single unit. "IF" you're planning a removable end cap, the you'll need to seal separate.

Joe, please do realize I've NEVER done that before. I didn't cut the end cap off the front, and the rear where I did cut end cap off to allow easier placing of kaowool, I left it fully open and sealed kaowool completely. The rear is covered by fire bricks sitting in the angle rack.

Rainy in AZ? That's cause for celebration isn't it?

 

[jaxxas]

Well I made them removable for any future relining, just thought it would be easier that way. I had/have no thoughts of removing them while or for forging. So I guess that answers my question, I'll cast them in place.

Yes, the rain is mostly a good thing, just kinda inconvenient at the moment!

 

[jaxxas]

As I noted earlier I trimmed the burner tube, it will be nice and long!

burner tube.jpg

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And after deciding to cast the castable all in one go I put the forge all back together again, hopefully for a very long time.

back together.jpg

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But I have/had issues. Because my rear end cap is longer than the front I had a pretty large gap in the kao wool. Really poor planning on my part! So I cut some more kao wool and got it in place and it's rigidized now. It may set me back another day for the castable waiting for the kao wool to dry with this rainy weather.

My thermal couple parts have yet to arrive. Kinda anxious to get it hooked up.

Totally unrelated but while I had some downtime from forge building I finished up another little project that's been nagging at me for weeks now. I finalized my little cart for my small table saw. It's not much but it's so much more useful when I can move it in and out when it's needed.

saw cart.jpg

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[jaxxas]

Heck of a day. Not much done! I have new neighbors who are from Cambodia. It appears as they got messed over (due to language skills?) when they bought the house next door. Possibly no home inspection. Termites are rampant and they seem stuck with the dreaded polybutylene plumbing. And I don't speak Khmer! Seem like real nice people though....

Anyway I got very little done. I installed the thermal couple and I hate how it looks. But it is protected!

tc.jpg

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tc2.jpg

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I hooked up the thermal couple to the control box and all I could get was EEEEE readings when I turned on the thermal couple? I reversed the TC leads but it didn't make a difference. Not sure what I'm doing wrong. Very little time today and I haven't had time to check the internet for help, any ideas?

eeeee reading.jpg

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[KenH]

Good morning Joe, you might take a look and make sure no wires are open, nor shorted. Reversed TC leads usually just make the display read backward (negative rather than positive numbers). Have you checked your parameters to be sure a type "K" TC is selected? It is a type K you have? Wired to correct terminals? What manuf/model indicator do you have? Is that a PID?

Do you really need the depth provided by using 3 of the 4X4 boxes?

 

[jaxxas]

Mornin Ken.

I got it working after rereading the instructions a dozen times. On my display the 'k' setting looks like a 'p'. It seems to be pretty accurate when I first turn it on but then the temp starts to slowly climb.

I suspect it is self-heating to some degree, I've seen thermistors that do that. But then I don't know how accurate it should be. I also can't get the auto tune function to work properly. The AT led flashes but never stops.

And I really dislike the 3 boxes, looks hideous. but my connector sticks out that far. Maybe I can figure out something else?

 

[jaxxas]

OK, I reversed the TC leads and the temp stabilized, it's within one degree of another temp gauge and it has quit rising. I still can't get the 'auto tune' function to work, I called 'Light Object' and they are going to have someone call me back. Not sure how much it matters at this point!

Also on the protective TC box, I think I could just barely get by with 2 electrical boxes. Or I could make a better looking box out of some 4" muffler pipe I have. The connector sticks out quite a bit.

I'm still undecided!

 

[KenH]

Oh, now I see that long connector - think it will hold up the high temp that will be in the box? Maybe so, but not sure. Wait, going back and looking at photos the box is well away from the forge body so I doubt temperature will be a problem.

Here is the type I used to slide inside the ceramic sheath for $14 shipped from USA: https://www.ebay.com/itm/184193029762? Now looking at that one closer it looks like the OD of the ceramic insulators is 1" - that's pretty large. Here's one more like I actually got for $8 shipped from China: https://www.ebay.com/itm/293444812610? As you see the TC wire itself is #9 wire should should last a long time.

On the AutoTune function - that can only be used once you start heating in the forge. "Usually" the AT function works by heating up past setpoint, cooling off, then heating again to determine how fast it heats and how fast it cools to determine values for "P", "I", and "D". Looking the manual I found for the controller it says TET-7100, but the instructions inside are similar to the Auber SLY-2362 PID I've got. I like the dual display so I can see the setpoint same as the process temperature.

Looking good, now I'm off to weld a top bracket to my forge body to hold the front 'n rear firebricks in place better. With just the bottom angle iron the brick tend to flop around a tad, and it will be better if they're held more stable.

Later

 

[jaxxas]

Oh, now I see that long connector - think it will hold up the high temp that will be in the box? Maybe so, but not sure. Wait, going back and looking at photos the box is well away from the forge body so I doubt temperature will be a problem.

Here is the type I used to slide inside the ceramic sheath for $14 shipped from USA: https://www.ebay.com/itm/184193029762? Now looking at that one closer it looks like the OD of the ceramic insulators is 1" - that's pretty large. Here's one more like I actually got for $8 shipped from China: https://www.ebay.com/itm/293444812610? As you see the TC wire itself is #9 wire should should last a long time.

On the AutoTune function - that can only be used once you start heating in the forge. "Usually" the AT function works by heating up past setpoint, cooling off, then heating again to determine how fast it heats and how fast it cools to determine values for "P", "I", and "D". Looking the manual I found for the controller it says TET-7100, but the instructions inside are similar to the Auber SLY-2362 PID I've got. I like the dual display so I can see the setpoint same as the process temperature.

Looking good, now I'm off to weld a top bracket to my forge body to hold the front 'n rear firebricks in place better. With just the bottom angle iron the brick tend to flop around a tad, and it will be better if they're held more stable.

Later

Well I like yours a whole better than the one I have! And my wire seems fairly fragile compared to a 9 gauge wire!

I've been thinking about the TC issue and I think what I will do is remove the connector and solder the wires in place, then I should be able to use just a single electrical box for a housing.

Let's see your welds Ken!

 

[jaxxas]

Well I don't feel real good about today, just to get that upfront. Totally out of my element with the castable, but I attempted it anyway.

Pretty sure the top is too thin and the sides are too thick and the bottom too wet! I guess we'l see what comes of it.

The instructions say I need to keep it above 60 degrees. Should be doable though the temp is predicted to be 53 degrees tonight. So I stuck a couple of lights inside....

And draped a welding blanket over the whole forge trying to keep the temp up a bit....

In the future I may consider a total castable forge with no kao wool. The sides and top are the roughest ugliest things I've ever made!

The temperature has already come up 2 degrees by adding the lights and blanket.

 

[KenH]

Can't solder TC wires. Too much chance the solder will get between the wire. You've got two options,
1: twist the wires together (remember to keep the Chromel to Chromel and Alumel to Alumel). Twist them tight, then crimp a lug over the twist portion so the crimp is just pressing wires together.

2. Take one of those plugs apart, and use just the terminal portion with screw, and put both wires under the same screw. Be sure to keep Chromel to the proper screw. Either of those methods should work just fine. I think I do like the idea of using the screw terminal.

My welds? You mean the forge welds? OR, the dirt daubing I do with a stick welder?

Just looking at the photos (look good inserted into thread). Why did you square up the interior rather than leaving it more round for the flame ot swirl around? I think you'll be just fine with what you've got. Remember, the kaowool flooring is considered an expendable because the flux eats it up pretty fast.

 

[jaxxas]

Can't solder TC wires. Too much chance the solder will get between the wire. You've got two options,
1: twist the wires together (remember to keep the Chromel to Chromel and Alumel to Alumel). Twist them tight, then crimp a lug over the twist portion so the crimp is just pressing wires together.

2. Take one of those plugs apart, and use just the terminal portion with screw, and put both wires under the same screw. Be sure to keep Chromel to the proper screw. Either of those methods should work just fine. I think I do like the idea of using the screw terminal.

My welds? You mean the forge welds? OR, the dirt dabbing I do with a stick welder?

Just looking at the photos (look good inserted into thread). Why did you square up the interior rather than leaving it more round for the flame ot swirl around? I think you'll be just fine with what you've got. Remember, the kaowool flooring is considered an expendable because the flux eats it up pretty fast.

Thank you so much for letting me know! I could have had some ugly times soldering otherwise!

I'll keep them wire types straight!

Your welds, yes! I never learn as much as when I'm watching a pro weld!

I have no good reason for squaring up the bottom other than I thought that was what I should be going for!

When you talked earlier about your dual readout PID, is your forge PID controlled? Otherwise how do you use the setpoint?

 

[KenH]

You're right, the bottom should be squared up, not to be square, but to have a flat bottom. From the angle in photo it "looked" like the top and sides were squared also. With those rounded the flame can swirl around better than if the top and sides were flat. It might well be the camera angle and the top 'n sides are not squared 'n flat.

Nope, I do use a PID for temperature indication on forge, here's what I use: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B078WQJ4Q3/ I use PID controller on a toaster oven for tempering and curing powder coat paint and also on lead pot for casting bullets.

edit: I now see the link above says "-58°F~1022°F(-50~1300°C)", not sure where they get the 1022°F as max, it goes 2400°F nicely. Not with the TC that is included, but proper TC that will handle high temperature.

I think you're talking about my stick arc welding? I've never had any formal training as welder and I'm no pro by any means. While at one time I guess I was a "pro" in that I got paid to weld, it was for bracket welding in an electrical construction crew and only had to mostly flat weld. I could NOT have passed a pipe welder's test, not even close. I only worked that for 9 months before deciding a full fledged electrician was better than a welder, so I quit that job and went to next construction job and hired in as "journeyman electrician" and never worked as a welder again. Since retirement I've had to relearn some welding, that's why I called my welding "dirt daubing". I'm not opposed to grinding welds to make them look better {g}.

To follow up, I worked as electrician for 5 or so years, then a company recruited me as a "field engineer" for instrument 'n electrical work. Rest of my career I worked in management and engineering, mostly in chemical plants.

From where I'm at (73 in May) Kenny Rogers sure died young...... at 81! {g}

Later

 

[jaxxas]

I see, the top and sides are mostly rounded, though it appears to be a rough rounding!

So your toaster oven is PID controlled? Does it work out OK? I should have probably tried that, I went and bought a second oven to temper in. I used to cast bullets way back when, it was the only way I could afford to shoot at the time. I like how that Signstek ST300 looks, I bookmarked it for future possibilities.

Yeah it seems to me if you get paid to weld for a living you are a Pro! I had a good friend who was a pro, self taught but he was state licensed. He mostly welded those big highway signs that stretch all the way across the highway. I learned so much working with him. He is missed.

So do you weld only stick or have you gotten into the MIG welding. I love my MIG!

Once between jobs years ago I worked for a temporary agency where they hired me out as an electricians helper. It was very interesting and I learned a lot but I only did that for about 6 months till I hired on at my last and final job. Interestingly enough I was also the company field instrumentation guy. Mostly data loggers and strain gauges in an underground mine in Papua New Guinea. In my later years I guess you could say I was in management as well, I was a Systems Administrator. Or 'IT' management. The joke is 'IT', whatever 'it' is I had to do it!

Yeah Kenny was too young and the older I get the younger that seems. I love his 'Just Dropped in' song. Fun to try to play it on a guitar too, though trying is about all I can do.

Back to the forge,

I checked on the castable and surprisingly the floor looks ok, fairly dry and hard to the touch. I think the lamps and blanket kept the inside up near the mid 70's overnight. The top and side look pretty rough though. I guess I'll try to start a 'firing schedule' later at the 24 hour mark.

I'm going to try to follow this schedule

Air Curing

At temps above 59° keep surface damp or covered for 16-24 hrs or until a hard set has developed. Best results are achieved at temps 86°f-113°f

Keep material from freezing during air cure, and preferably until a dry out can be intiated. Freezing of product will cause structural damage.

Dry Out Schedule.

Heating and cooling refractory structures can be complex. When preformed by the client they themselves are responsible for the end result. The following is given in good faith for guidence only.

Bring forge temp up from Ambient to 250°f slowly(104° per hour). Hold at 250° for 7.5 minutes per 1/4" of Mizzou layer thickness.

Let forge cool completly down.

Bring forge temp up slowly(104° per hour) to 250° then increase forge temp slowly (104° per hour) until you reach 482°f. Hold 482°f for 7.5 minutes per 1/4" of Mizzou coating thickness

Let forge cool completly down.

Bring forge temp up slowly (104° per hour) to 482° then increase forge temp slowly to 1,022°f hold temp for 7.5 minutes per 1/4" thickness of Mizzou coating.

Let forge cool completly down.

Your forge is now ready to use.

I have no idea if it's possible to maintain those low temps though!?