Knife Maker Ethics

Well it seems to be a mute point.

The customer just forwarded me an email from the designer/maker that stated.

"Thanks for asking, and if you would like to have one made using my design feel free to do so"

He stated further that this wasnt "his" design, but he was the only manufacturer making them currently. Dont know what that means specifically, but I feel much better about making the knife.

Thanks again to all of you for your opinions on this topic. Its great to have this forum to use as a sounding board!

God Bless
Mike
 
I think it comes down to would a knowledgeable knife person confuse this for the original. A lot of knives are like cars, they are homogeneous and it you take the maker's mark or badge off, it is difficult to tell one from another.

I think most new cars are so aerodynamic and bland that they look like someone threw a sheet over them and painted lights, windows and hardware on it!

Many of our "tactical" knives aren't any better. Most innovations tend to be slight and geared more towards locks, carrying systems, openers, or blade steel or materials, NOT DESIGN.
 
so here is a question,

is it unethical to make a copy of a knife to your specs for yourself, and your personal use? if there isnt any money being made........

jake
 
I'm not pointing this at you Jake, but your post made me think....

If a person has to ask if something is ethical, then that means there is some doubt in the person's mind, and based on that, its probably not ethical.

Over the years I have had a number of customers contact me and specifically ask me to make another maker's design. The one that pops to mind is Jerry Fisk's Woojack. That customer was very insistent, but to me it wasn't right for me to copy something that Jerry made/makes...at least without permission. I called Jerry and he told me to "Go for it!" The customer's request created an ethical dilemma for me, but a simple phone call solved everything......pretty easy "fix".
 
This works both ways.... About 12 years ago, I sold a tactical style locking liner to a little guy in a business suit at the Blade Show. Six months later I see an ad from a large company with my knife in it made overseas! As soon as I got my hands on one, I took it apart and took some measurements. They didn't even bother to change it; the knockoff was identical. They didn't even change the inlay pockets. Nope...I didn't get anything out of it!
 
I feel your pain! A few years ago I was approached by XXXX Knives about my EBKs..... I actually gave the rep TWO (one of each model) and was told that I would hear something within the next 45 days.

After 3 months I called, and got the run around. This went on for a number of months, and then one day a box showed up on the shop step.... it was the two EBKs rattling around in a big box, with no packing, and a 6 page letter chastising me. Basically the letter was from the companies legal Dept, telling me to never again send something to them unsolicited, and that I was disrupting their R&D. ??????

Since that time I have kept an eye on what that company is producing....and they have already made a couple of "special runs" of knives that look nearly identical to my EBKs......although there isn't a darn thing I could ever do about it, its still upsetting to know they are such an unscrupulous company, and are certainly on my "black list" of people never to deal with again.

In the end, it's a chance that we all take, and even more so if a maker ever seeks a "factory deal". The companies are always going to have more money, more lawyers, and time than we "Little Guys".

I cling to the faith that for those who do me wrong like that, will eventually reap what they sew.
 
As the song says "There aint no right way to do the wrong thing"

That phrase says volumes to me. You can rationalize things to the Nth degree, but if its wrong, its wrong period.

I am glad to say that the customer contacted the original maker Shivworks to ask permission to have one of their production pieces made to better fit his grip. They have given him verbal as well as email conformation. I am waiting for a copy of this letter before I proceed. Its a personal thing with me I guess, but having this makes me content knowing I have their blessing. The knife BTW is the "Clinchpick" not really my cup of tea, but its always nice to do something different.

I greatly appreciate all the input.It really made ma mad to see all the "knockoffs" for sale when I was in Korea last time. Funny but the most readily available "copy" was of Smith & Wesson folders. May have been the new phase at the time.

Thanks and God Bless
Mike
 
I saw one recently where someone in China was making fake Bokers. They even copied the box but had the wrong box for the model knife they were selling. Even more, they put Gil Hibben's signature on it!
 
Dont remember where it was, but do remember seeing a poorly built but highly polished switchblade which the box said made by "Jimy Lyle" maker of Rambo!
 
Oddly enough, I have thought about this very topic recently- was going to ask a similar question. But after reading this, I have come to some conclusions and questions:

In my opinion, if I see as Randal photo and like it, decide to try to make a knife of that persuasion, I will change a few things to my personal liking and call it "Randal inspired" or "a variation of a Randal #5 design" etc. Is that a good summary of what I seem to be hearing from most of ya'll? I would personally be satisfied if another maker did something similar with one of my designs, as long as I got some credit. After all, no two of my own designs are ever just alike anyway....

Fortunatly, or maybe not so fortunate, the kinds of knives I like and make are generally hunting/using styles that have been copied, modified, re-done ad-infinitum. After all, does everyone that ever makes a drop-point hunter have to give R.W. credit? Although, I have heard it said that he "pioneered" that design. Basically, I'm not personally all that worried about it now, unless I try to make a carbon copy....which I doubt I could if I tried.

I do have some legal perspective....unless you patent it, it's public property once you sell it. I aint got the time or money to worry about that.....
 
Really a great question that keeps coming up.

I'd say over the last ten years, many makers have moved a bit on this one from "everything I design is mine and no one better copy it!" to a more moderate "it's a knife, there are so many ways to make a knife - knock yourself out" It's pretty hard to get a patent on a knife blade shape so basically you can make what you want. That doesn't make it ethical in our world though.

You can get a patent on a method of locking the blade. You can even get a patent on a hole in a blade! Producing a copy of any of these designs, patented or not, for your own use is perfectly legal and in my opinion ethical. It has been that way since the start of time. Using a design for commercial gain that has been patented is illegal and unethical but I don't think that really was the intent of the original question.

Is it OK to copy a blade design for a customer?
The shape, I think so. If there is a unique signature grind, maybe not so much. Maybe a call to the original maker like when Ed called Fisk would probably take care of any question. If you set up to reproduce an exact copy of another makers intellectual property (even if it is a factory) I guess I would say no on that one.

If you take another makers design and make "enough" changes, I guess that is OK also. I don't know what "enough" would be though and I bet my "enough" would not some one else's on any given day.
 
What if the knife you're asked to copy never existed?

I have a potential customer who is nipping at my heels to make him 2 knives just like the ones he sees in a popular video game. To my knowledge, neither has been produced by any maker or factory; they are solely the product of a game-designer's imagination. From what I can tell, the knives in the game are based on a hodge-podge of features seen on other knives that have appeared in movies and video-games. Each would be a "one-off" build; the customer only wants them for himself. Or so he says. I wouldn't be taking business away from anyone, just providing a customer with a product.

Although the project is interesting, challenging and frankly quite lucrative, I have deep misgivings about it. What if this guy uses my work as a prototype and has a factory somewhere crank them out? What if the game company gets a bug up their backside and sues me? What if he shows them to his buddies and they all order similar pieces, keeping me employed for the next several weeks?

On the other hand, what if I build two rather silly knives for a fellow with more money than brains and no one ever hears about them?
 
Let be honest if you think that way then what about the knife makers of 2000 yes 2000 years ago are you steeling their design ,do you feel bad that your taking a pattern that may have been made even once 200 years ago say a bowie. I think not when and if there is one ans I mean one tiny difference then its not a copy. The differencs may be as small as the material thickness or rockwell hardness. We are not copying making something that has a patent and if you wereone tiny tiny difference doesnt make it the same.
 
As a new maker, I was advised to "Stick with the basic designs". As such, I don't think it would be possible for me to do anything BUT to copy someone else's design. Even though I sit down with Graph Paper,drafting/drawing tools, and a ruler to draw each "Basic Design" out. The only knives I have actually looked at while drawing were Nessmuks, and the "Cephas Ham Bowie" on display at the Alamo. Still, I am not good enough Artistically to Copy anything. My drawings may look "Close" but I think anyone could look and see differences.

On another note, If you have a photo account you could copy your designs there, this would establish a "Time stamp" of sorts. That way if one of these unscrupulous manufacturers tries to hijack your design you would have "Proof" that you designed it first. If you set the settings to "Private" no one should be able to view your designs..... Just a thought. A simple annotation like "all rights reserved" or such should let it be known that they aren't available to be used by someone else. I'm no lawyer or anything but it sounds feasible.
 
I consider ethics to be a very big deal. In fact, it is the cornstone of my business.

I use a polishers' tools, but I have no such credentials. And I have come to believe that most people want to know such things. For example, I had a fellow forum member by the handle of Buzzard767 fly up from Florida to see if I actually existed.

If the 'man' is not to be believed, then the 'metal' is suspect.

And ya' know, it's also very good business. I charge a lot, and by "a lot" I mean 'more than a lot.' I do so with a straight face and unfettered sleep.
 
Mike Carter said:
Well nobody really knows what Mr. Black's knife even looked like, or if he made a Bowie knife, but it's pretty certain that the "Bowies" most of us are making today don't look much like the original.

Same thing with the Nessmuk. There was a single illustration and nobody knows where it cme from, who made it, or if it really even existed.
Click to expand...


I know it's going of at a slight tangent from the main thrust of this post, but the illustration I think your referring to is a print from chapter 2 of 'woodcraft' by George Washington Sears, aka Nessmuk. it shows the double bit axe, the 'Nessmuk" knife and a 2 blade pocket knife side by side

in it he says "A word as to knife, or knives. These are of prime necessity, and should be of the best, both as to shape and temper. The “bowies” and “hunting knives” usually kept on sale, are thick, clumsy affairs, with a sort of ridge along the middle of the blade, murderous-looking, but of little use; rather fitted to adorn a dime novel or the belt of “Billy the Kid,” than the outfit of the hunter. The one shown in the cut is thin in the blade, and handy for skinning, cutting meat, or eating with."

many of the modern 'nessmuk" knives being made would appear to be too thick to be accurately described as a "Nessmuk" pattern according to the original description.

going back to the point of copying a makers work , I point blank refuse to do that with a living maker, but if I make a piece after seeing another knife and my piece has been directly influenced by the that knife I will state it is influenced by that makers style. I.e. a Bell influenced Bowie , Scagil styled skinner etc.
 
BossDog said:
Really a great question that keeps coming up.

I'd say over the last ten years, many makers have moved a bit on this one from "everything I design is mine and no one better copy it!" to a more moderate "it's a knife, there are so many ways to make a knife - knock yourself out" It's pretty hard to get a patent on a knife blade shape so basically you can make what you want. That doesn't make it ethical in our world though.

You can get a patent on a method of locking the blade. You can even get a patent on a hole in a blade! Producing a copy of any of these designs, patented or not, for your own use is perfectly legal and in my opinion ethical. It has been that way since the start of time. Using a design for commercial gain that has been patented is illegal and unethical but I don't think that really was the intent of the original question.

Is it OK to copy a blade design for a customer?
The shape, I think so. If there is a unique signature grind, maybe not so much. Maybe a call to the original maker like when Ed called Fisk would probably take care of any question. If you set up to reproduce an exact copy of another makers intellectual property (even if it is a factory) I guess I would say no on that one.

If you take another makers design and make "enough" changes, I guess that is OK also. I don't know what "enough" would be though and I bet my "enough" would not some one else's on any given day.
Click to expand...

This sums up my feelings about perfectly. Very level thinking I'd say. If you're that conflicted, contact the originator and get their opinion.

Regards,

Dave
 
zabesia

I personally dont think its wrong in copping some body knife if i no the maker personally i will ask him if i can use his design

I is vertually imposibile to come up with an orignial design,
make a bowie with a stainless steel eagle head i bet thers a knife maker out there that makes a bowie that is very much the same
as soon as i can get somebody to show me how to post pic i will put on my bowies i make ,
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top