Knife Maker Ethics

D

Diamond G Knives

Well-Known Member
I had a friend come by the shop today with a defense type knife that is made commercially. He wanted one made "similar" to it but with modifications to make it work better for him.

I used the original for a pattern then cut the blank out and had him feel it, we then proceeded to "take a little off here add a little there" until it was a shape that worked better for him.

My question is this:

The finished blank is not very different than the original, a tad longer and a bit different in the handle shape, but over all very similar. Should I be concerned with "stealing" a design from other manufacturers?

He seems to think that some of his self defense buds might be interested in this so I may have an opportunity to make several, just wondered where is it that you cross the line?

Just asking for opinions.

Thanks and God Bless
Mike
 
I wouldn't think you would need to worry about it unless you tried to do a mass production of the model. As you said, you did alter the design. I would give credit where credit is due though and not attempt to take credit for the design. Just be honest and say it is a revised version of "Company X's, #123 design" as requested by a customer.

This is just my $0.02. Some of the professionals around here may be able to give a more official/legal opinion. I would check to see if there is a patten number on the design before selling an exact duplicate of the design.
 
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I think about this quite a bit.
There is only so many ways to make a knife. I'm not sure about using the knife as a pattern though. Surly something could have been drawn up similar but "original".
I made a knife one time I thought was definitely one of a kind. Surfing the Internet one night I came across a knife that mine looked exactly like and it even had the same scales! So much for one of a kind.

I have studied many makers knives and have most definitely been influenced and inspired by their work. I may even make a copy of one of their knives but I would never sell it knowing I copied it.

Using the knife as a pattern is the only problem I have with what you did.
 
I agree. Making something inspired by another knife but different, or making a couple of modified copies isn't a big deal and in most cases the orignal designer will say OK if you ask.

It is another thing to make exact copies of a popular knife just because someone doesn't want to pay the price for the real thing or mass market cheaper knock-offs that undercut those who have time, money and effort invested in the design.
 
Mike Carter said:
I agree. Making something inspired by another knife but different, or making a couple of modified copies isn't a big deal and in most cases the orignal designer will say OK if you ask.

It is another thing to make exact copies of a popular knife just because someone doesn't want to pay the price for the real thing or mass market cheaper knock-offs that undercut those who have time, money and effort invested in the design.
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+12thumbs
 
I think its hard to call it stealing unless you make exact copy's after all aren't we all in some way taking designs we liked and have been influenced by and incorporating them in our own work. Think about how many Bowie knifes are made each year ,I can't be sure but I thing Mr.Black would be quite pleased with what he started or should I say passed on to us because undoubtedly he was influenced by those that that preceded him
 
lyman said:
I think its hard to call it stealing unless you make exact copy's after all aren't we all in some way taking designs we liked and have been influenced by and incorporating them in our own work. Think about how many Bowie knifes are made each year ,I can't be sure but I thing Mr.Black would be quite pleased with what he started or should I say passed on to us because undoubtedly he was influenced by those that that preceded him
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Well nobody really knows what Mr. Black's knife even looked like, or if he made a Bowie knife, but it's pretty certain that the "Bowies" most of us are making today don't look much like the original.

Same thing with the Nessmuk. There was a single illustration and nobody knows where it cme from, who made it, or if it really even existed.

But even so, a basic blade style is a different matter than the same size, shape and thickness, same guard, same handle design. It's pretty obvious when something is inspired and when it is a copy.

Yes, it's pretty hard to come up with something unique and original but those who manage to do it deserve to reap the rewards. When someone copies them it just takes money out of their pocket and someone else cashes in on thier creativity and work. That's just not right.
 
Well I'm going to tell my story.
I had a fellow want me to build him a one off custom. So I sent him Drawings and he picked one.I then proceeded to send him a Plastic Pattern for his ok.
He ok'd the pattern and after a few weeks I had to call him to get the Pattern back.
My back log is about 4 months.
Before I could complete his knife(Guess what? He's a knifemaker) this guy shows a new design he is making. My pattern, calling it his own.
Nice Guy huh?
 
Personally I wouldn't have done it. Though it is commercially-made, it is still someone's design and you're possibly taking money out of his/her pocket. Try to look at it from the other side, how would you feel if someone did that to one of your designs?

Sorry if that comes across a bit harsh -- by asking it seems like you're trying to do the right thing.

Bearpawcustoms said:
Well I'm going to tell my story.
I had a fellow want me to build him a one off custom. So I sent him Drawings and he picked one.I then proceeded to send him a Plastic Pattern for his ok.
He ok'd the pattern and after a few weeks I had to call him to get the Pattern back.
My back log is about 4 months.
Before I could complete his knife(Guess what? He's a knifemaker) this guy shows a new design he is making. My pattern, calling it his own.
Nice Guy huh?
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Who is this special guy? :mad:
 
I have had two of my designs copied with the intention of having them mass produced in Pakistan. The guy even admitted it. I was thoroughly incensed. The two designs were both very unique, and every curve was copied. Had the guy not fessed up, apologized, and cancelled his production order, there would have been nothing I could have done. Thank God he did. He claimed there were changes, but the specs, the steel, the handle shape, etc were all the same. I'm just glad it was resolved.

I dunno what you should do. But I thought I'd share my experience as the copied maker.
 
Mike Carter said:
Well nobody really knows what Mr. Black's knife even looked like, or if he made a Bowie knife, but it's pretty certain that the "Bowies" most of us are making today don't look much like the original.
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I'm sure of that Mike, if we made ones like the first "Bowies" few people would buy them. From what I've seen and read they were just big butcher knives.
 
Randall started out copying Scagel.

Loveless started out copying Randall.

Look how many makers copy Scagel, Randall, and Loveless today.

If you are going to make a copy of someone else's work--you need to give credit where it's due.

If you are going to make a copy of someone else's work to make a profit--you need to get permission.

But, I will say this. If your designs are that important to you that you don't want someone else to copy them--get legal protection in the form of a patent if you can.

One can say that when it comes to knife designs, "it's all been done." Another way of saying that is "copying is the norm in the custom knife industry." And I think that would be a tough norm to go up against if it ever came down to a legal battle.
 
NJStricker said:
Randall started out copying Scagel.

Loveless started out copying Randall.

Look how many makers copy Scagel, Randall, and Loveless today.
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And the list gos on all the way back to some crafty fella banging 2 rock together in a cave.
 
Hey guys,

This is a pretty important conversation to knife makers. Just ask Mike Carter what an effect it can have. His mentor had just such an experience. And the truth is that like most makers, I get asked at least once or twice a year to copy something.

Those among us that say, "Hey, there are only so many ways to do a drop point or bowie. We are all copying." are right to a point. The problem is when it comes to copying the style of a knife. Blade types, handle types, materials and the rest are pretty universal. The way they are put together is the style.

If we as knife makers are going to condone the theft of style that is what is going to happen. And what point is there to sole authorship?

I'm completely self taught and I've spent 30 years making knives the exact same way. My style is simple and rustic, but very unique. Like 'um or hate 'um, if you see one of my knives you will never confuse it with another maker. If someone copies my knives they are going to be an obvious thief!

I've got to be honest, I can't say the same of a lot of makers nowadays. What ever is the flavor of the month gets copied to infinitum. I blame the internet for much of this, but it's been going on since the first knife was napped out of stone.

We as makers are NOT going to stop it, but we do not have to condone or participate in it!
 
In response to Lyman--I wouldn't quite go that far.

Before Scagel, I don't know that there's really a notion of "custom" knives.

But the majority of designs today can trace their roots back to kitchen/butcher knives of the 16th/17th centuries, perhaps farther if you look to the Viking/European martial blades.
 
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Fiddleback said:
I have had two of my designs copied with the intention of having them mass produced in Pakistan. The guy even admitted it. I was thoroughly incensed. The two designs were both very unique, and every curve was copied. Had the guy not fessed up, apologized, and cancelled his production order, there would have been nothing I could have done. Thank God he did. He claimed there were changes, but the specs, the steel, the handle shape, etc were all the same. I'm just glad it was resolved.

I dunno what you should do. But I thought I'd share my experience as the copied maker.
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Yes, that bloke is a total idiot and an embarrassment to my country! :mad:
 
NJStricker said:
In response to Lyman--I wouldn't quite go that far.

Before Scagel, I don't know that there's really a notion of "custom" knives.
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to my way of thinking before the advent of the production line they were all "custom" knives
Scagel revived a dying craft and for that we should all be grateful and give him all the respect he deserves but he is still 1 man in a long line of tool makers going back in time to the dawn of man.

That being said I do not condone the out right theft of any ones design for reproduction or sale nor did I mean to upset any one has been ripped off but I still maintain we are all working off very old blueprints.

Wheels are round and they roll ,knifes are sharp and they cut they have been and will be for a long time just my thoughts sorry if I a fend
 
After reading many of your opinions, I believe I will stick by my original post. As long as you are changing the design somewhat, I believe it would be ethical to make the knife/knives for your buddy. I would deffinitely still give credit where credit is deserved and disclose that the knife is a modified version of the original creator's design. I would also limit the number of pieces produced to just those requested by this particular individual who came to you with the modified design.
 
After reading this thread I see this is a real touchy subject. If you make the knives some of the makers on here are going to be upset with you. I see by you posting it, that you want to make the right decision. Just remember, if someone thinks you're digging into their bread and butter, you make enemies.

If I designed a knife to be sold commercially and someone copied it exactly and planned to sell several of them I would be upset. If they modified it, I wouldn't be so upset. If they asked my permission I would probably say ok.

It's just my opinion.

Larry
 
Thank you for all of your responses.

After mulling this over, and trying to look at the different angles, here are my thoughts.

The proposed customer has in fact already purchased this knife from the manufacturer, and since his purchase, he is not satisfied by the way it fits his hand (beefy handed guy) I agree he should have tried before he bought, but didn't. He is wanting a similar knife made with changes to suit him personally, for his style of grip and draw.

The changes made to the knife would be roughly 65% in the handle, the cutting edge will have an inside curve where the original is straight, and the thumb ramp and serrations will be removed.

So what is remnant of the original, is the concept, the curve of the tip and that micarta is used for the handle, which will be textured where the original is smooth.

Im guessing that the original design will be changed more than it is not.

Laying the two side by side, other than the "style" of knife a semi Karambit, there wont be that much that hasn't been altered.

Im going to make the knife and compare it to the original when I am done customizing it to the owners specs. I f I feel I am infringing on the original I will contact the original manufacturer for permission prior to any sales.

Again, I greatly appreciate all of your input. I don't like seeing folks ripped off any more than I liked being ripped off myself.

Thanks and God Bless
Mike
 
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