Water damage question

M

Michael Minto

Guest
hi. sold a knife to a guy just over a year ago, as a gift for his nephew. yesterday i got an email saying "there is something wrong" with the knife. today, i went to see about the problem - i'm thinking what manufacturing defect has reared it's ugly head - would be my first such complaint. well, the story i get from this guy, is that his nephew was kayaking, and the boat overturned. the knife is in the water for "about 20 minutes" he tells me. well, i have my doubts. i think that the knife spent more than 20 minutes wet, and that the owner applied some heat to the handle to dry it as well as the sheath, and the damage you can see is what resulted. now, i'm not sure, and am taking the guy at his word. i told him this is not a maker's defect, but i would clean up the knife and try to "re-glue" the handle to the knife. I'm interested in any knowledgeable person's opinion about what they think happened to this knife.
 

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Wow, applied heat? Who knows how hot and how long. In fact, if I were going to remove a set of scales, that's probably what I would start with, heat. If you don't mind me asking, what type of wood and which epoxy did you use?
 
hello, SMK. The wood is American walnut, and I used Loc-Tite 2 ton epoxy, which I have used for about 4 years now with no issue. The heat concern is just conjecture on my part, but seems reasonable given the look of the handle and the limited time of immersion in water. Do you have any experience with this sort of thing?
 
I would guess that the knife was kept in the wet sheath after he got it out of the water. If the knife was dried after coming out of the water I don't think it would have the rust that it does.

What is the liner material? When I use liners, I drill as many holes as I can get in the liners so there is a lot of epoxy contact between the blade and the wood scales.
 
Michael Minto said:
hello, SMK. The wood is American walnut, and I used Loc-Tite 2 ton epoxy, which I have used for about 4 years now with no issue. The heat concern is just conjecture on my part, but seems reasonable given the look of the handle and the limited time of immersion in water. Do you have any experience with this sort of thing?
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No, hasn't happened to me yet, but I'm always paranoid about getting a return. I've been using G-Flex epoxy pretty much from the start. I've heard some of the older guys say that they've had 5-minute type epoxy failures after 4 or 5 years. I've only been making knives for around 4 years so far, so I don't haven any that's been out there all that long. I glue my liners (the fiber kind) directly to scales, with no holes. I also use corby bolts a lot too, just for that added security.
 
I did some pretty extensive testing on a couple dozen adhesives some time ago. After I got done I threw away 6 new, unopened packages of Devcon 2 ton epoxy due to the high failure rate. In this case, I'd guess it was a combination of the heat and adhesive used. To be fair to Devcon, heat fails nearly all epoxies. There are some epoxies that can take higher heat than 200F but not many.
Is the red liner vulcanized paper?
 
I think that sat on the bottom of a lake during a camp session...and by day 3 they found it...lol. prolly somewheres between my suspicious sarcasm and twenty minutes...

Would 20 minutes penetrate enough to swell that handle enough to crack near the lanyard hole? What kind of finish did you apply?
 
Chris, it is a stock removal knife. 1075 at about Rc 56.
 
GeneK, it is the liner material that Jantz sells. I never thought about drilling holes thru it, but that is an interesting idea. I'll try it.
 
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Tracy, it is the liner material Jantz sells. Never had an issue with it. What epoxy do you recommend?
 
You know, I forget what kind of finish, but I usually use a combination of linseed oil and shellac on material like this.
 
Michael Minto said:
Tracy, it is the liner material Jantz sells. Never had an issue with it. What epoxy do you recommend?
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It appears to be vulcanized paper and that can draw water in and swell. It does it very slowly though and 20 minutes soak time wouldn't be an issue. To test this, drop a scrap in a cup of water and see how long it takes to soak in. I still use it knowing this because nothing looks as bright as it does. I do seal up the exposed seam with thin superglue. Some guys refuse to use vulcanized liner because it can be hygroscopic but I'm not scared (lol).

I'd guess, as others have, it sat in a moist sheath for some time and everything swelled up. Water may be the most potent energy force on earth.

As for the glue, I use Gflex or Blade Bond. Both are designed to better handle sudden shear force.

The most important part of any bond is not the glue, it's the surface prep. Either sand blast the surface or rough it up aggressively with a 40 or 60 grit abrasive. I have destructive tested vulcanized liner glued surfaces many times. It does not bond well at all with out significant surface roughing.

When manufactures test their adhesive they use sandblasted metal coupons because it bonds the best.
 
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I use the vulcanized paper liners on just about every knife I make. (Kitchen knives). In fact I stack liners, usually three per side. I understand the reservations people have, but I have never seen a failure. I use my own knives in the kitchen and they get used harder than I’d expect any customer to use them. I have customers using them professionally in restaurant kitchens. I have fillet knives being used in salt water as well as kitchens.

I had to remove scales from a knife once (I stacked the liners out of order and didn’t notice until the handle had cured) and the handle had to be destroyed because I could not force the scales to separate. They had to be ground off, and the scales and liners had become a solid mono-block of material. I had to grind the tang to get it clean.

I would never, ever, claim that a material won’t fail. But I will say, based on my experience with vulcanized paper liners, that I don’t lose any sleep over it.

I go HEAVY on G-Flex 650 epoxy and Tru-Oil finish. The reason I go heavy on epoxy is so that the liner will “wet out” with epoxy. If my handles are going to soak up anything, the plan is to have them soak up epoxy when they’re made. What doesn’t get coated in epoxy ends up coated in Tru-Oil, or wax if the handle material won’t take oil.
 
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This is definitely not 20 min exposure. Thoroughly waterlogged, that’s what happened. I think you should at least try to charge them for repairs if you decided to help and restore the knife.
 
I assume the walnut wasn't stabilized?
I'm a little confused why somebody would take that knife kayaking, but I guess that's neither here nor there at this point.
I suppose that depending on where he was kayaking, the knife could have been getting wet before it was completely submerged. If the scales weren't treated, moisture could have been seeping in this whole time. Looks like he probably heated it pretty hot and quick. The rust on the blade could have happened if left in the wet sheath for a few hours.
This is one of the reasons I don't do very many wood handles.

I once had a guy who used one of my knives to scrape out the shitter pipe on an RV he had just bought. Decided to clean it up with some bleach and left it soaking over night. Fortunately, this was one of the few knives I'd made with removable scales, so I cleaned everything off, re-surfaced, and had the knife back to brand new. I liked the guy, so I didn't charge him. :D
 
Daniel Macina said:
Good lord! C’mon people!
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Ha ha, being in the trade I'm in I've worked on my share of busted sewers. when it was my own it didn't phase me too much but when it's someone else's that changes the equation. being he just bought that RV it's safe to say he was scraping someone else's crap. that knife should have gotten a decent burial...…….I hope I didn't just ruin anyone's breakfast. :D
 
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