The pup wondering again
- Thread starter wall e
- Start date
wall e
Well-Known Member
Heres the to do list for the next few weeks. 5160x1 1080x2 1084x1 and the pain in the arse D2 planer blade knife. The two 1080s are about what I want to make just a universal knife. Long enough to be used as a combat knife but not a choppa. Small enough to be an all around utility knife. I have a date with the files and sand paper to try and make it out an pray that the teacher has time to ht them.
wall e
Well-Known Member
I know all of you gents are trying to get me to stick with known new steel and advise me to avoid scavaging steel for knives but, I have leaf springs from my 4x4 so aside from the unknown factor and my time and fuel use would there be harm in using them for learning steel to practice forging a knife? I believe they are 5160 but am not certain since they are leaf springs they should be a high carbon steel right?
rhinoknives
Well-Known Member
I believe if you know model make and year you can find out what steel the springs are made of? 10XX series such as 1050. 1080 1095 etc.. Or 5160etc.. I don't know how to source that but hopefully others that do will chime in?
here is a site that have some very useful info about different steels by Joe Talmadge.
http://www.knifeart.com/steelfaqbyjo.html
J. Doyle
Dealer - Purveyor
Walt, the only thing I can say is you've already stated that your time to work on knives is extremely limited. Do you want to waste any of that forging, grinding, filing and polishing steel only to find out it won't hold an edge?
What's your time worth to you? That's something only you can decide. I used to think that I had time and I was just sitting here anyway, why not try something. But when I started making knives full time for a living, I learned a couple hard lessons right away that taught me that I had better start to put some value on my time or I'd be going the way of the dinosaur.
I personally would steer clear of mystery steel. We've (as a group) been round and round about the mystery steel topic and I can't for the life of me figure out why someone would want to waste their time on that. But to each their own I guess. Some argue that they don't have money for a decent bar of steel so they use what they can find or salvage. That's fine if that's what you want to do. But I'm back to what's your time worth? Is it worth running around looking through junk yards, calling people on the phone, trading with buddies etc, etc? How much gas are you spending driving to junk yards and such looking for 'free' steel? Is all that worth skipping shelling out for a $20 bar of steel with known alloy content and known heat treating? Only you can decide.
You can, as Laurence said, probably find out exactly what type of steel was used in a certain year, make and model of a car. But how long will that take? Is that worth it to you? Again, only you know that Walt. And if you can't find out, why take the chance? Assuming spring steel is a certain type of steel without knowing is a really bad idea. Even if the steel is really good, really bad or otherwise. What if it's the best steel ever for knife blades but you have no idea. Maybe it's 52100 but you heat treat it like 1080. The point is it could be really good knife steel but if you heat treat it wrong, it will still be junk. You just don't know unless you can prove for sure what it is. And then, if you use a spring, you have to cut it and straighten it before you can ever even start to turn it into a knife. How long does that take? Is that worth it to you?
You know what I love? Taking a piece of straight, known steel barstock from right under my bench, sticking it in the forge and starting to forge a point and belly on the blade. That's what I love.
What's your time worth to you? That's something only you can decide. I used to think that I had time and I was just sitting here anyway, why not try something. But when I started making knives full time for a living, I learned a couple hard lessons right away that taught me that I had better start to put some value on my time or I'd be going the way of the dinosaur.
I personally would steer clear of mystery steel. We've (as a group) been round and round about the mystery steel topic and I can't for the life of me figure out why someone would want to waste their time on that. But to each their own I guess. Some argue that they don't have money for a decent bar of steel so they use what they can find or salvage. That's fine if that's what you want to do. But I'm back to what's your time worth? Is it worth running around looking through junk yards, calling people on the phone, trading with buddies etc, etc? How much gas are you spending driving to junk yards and such looking for 'free' steel? Is all that worth skipping shelling out for a $20 bar of steel with known alloy content and known heat treating? Only you can decide.
You can, as Laurence said, probably find out exactly what type of steel was used in a certain year, make and model of a car. But how long will that take? Is that worth it to you? Again, only you know that Walt. And if you can't find out, why take the chance? Assuming spring steel is a certain type of steel without knowing is a really bad idea. Even if the steel is really good, really bad or otherwise. What if it's the best steel ever for knife blades but you have no idea. Maybe it's 52100 but you heat treat it like 1080. The point is it could be really good knife steel but if you heat treat it wrong, it will still be junk. You just don't know unless you can prove for sure what it is. And then, if you use a spring, you have to cut it and straighten it before you can ever even start to turn it into a knife. How long does that take? Is that worth it to you?
You know what I love? Taking a piece of straight, known steel barstock from right under my bench, sticking it in the forge and starting to forge a point and belly on the blade. That's what I love.
Last edited:
J. Doyle
Dealer - Purveyor
Walt, I'm gonna switch gears a bit here and make one more point. Those of us that have been around the forums for a while have seen lots of new guys come and go. Almost every other day the forums are flooded with new guys looking for advice or showing their first knives. After a month or two or six, I'm not sure what percentage of those guys are still around posting and improving, but I wouldn't be surprised if it's a single digit number. It's very low, I can tell you that.
The ones that make it are the ones that read, research, use the forum searches (for free), make posts, ask questions, show knives, ask specific questions about specific things and they ask how they can improve. Then they listen to the responses they get from seasoned makers and paid attention and started to show improvements. Those are the guys that are still around months and years later making better and better knives all the time.
You know which guys don't make it? Their first post ever reads something like this: "Hey guys, I made my first knife ever from some thin steel I scrapped off a bicycle frame and used some of the padded seat for a handle." Then their second post ever reads something like this: "Second knife ever...Mosaic pattern damascus liner lock folder with Unicorn ivory scales and 24k gold engraving on the bolsters and fileworked enriched uranium liners and backspacer." (Of course there is some *VERY SLIGHT* exaggeration, you get the point.)
Some of them are only dreamers and some actually attempt that second knife resulting in one of the worst train wrecks you could ever see in the handmade knife arena. We see it all the time, no joke. Either way, those guys don't last long.
You personally, Walt, started with planer blade knives, had loads of problems, asked for advice on how to fix them, got better advice than you asked for from many forum members, jumped in with both feet and the energy of the tasmanian devil into making handles and grinding blades from new knives with known steel, had some difficulties, abandoned that, went back to the planer blade knives and then jumped into posts about forge welding cable damascus and chainsaw chain. This is a huge red flag to me, my Friend. I'm afraid we're about to watch history repeat itself once again.
You need to think seriously about what direction you want to go here or you're going to lose the interest of those that want to help you succeed. Walt, hear me clearly on this: I want you to succeed. I'm pulling for you. I don't want you to be one of those guys that isn't around in another few months. I want you to do better all the time. I want you to be the best knife maker you can be.
I needed to be clear about that last statement.
The ones that make it are the ones that read, research, use the forum searches (for free), make posts, ask questions, show knives, ask specific questions about specific things and they ask how they can improve. Then they listen to the responses they get from seasoned makers and paid attention and started to show improvements. Those are the guys that are still around months and years later making better and better knives all the time.
You know which guys don't make it? Their first post ever reads something like this: "Hey guys, I made my first knife ever from some thin steel I scrapped off a bicycle frame and used some of the padded seat for a handle." Then their second post ever reads something like this: "Second knife ever...Mosaic pattern damascus liner lock folder with Unicorn ivory scales and 24k gold engraving on the bolsters and fileworked enriched uranium liners and backspacer." (Of course there is some *VERY SLIGHT* exaggeration, you get the point.)
Some of them are only dreamers and some actually attempt that second knife resulting in one of the worst train wrecks you could ever see in the handmade knife arena. We see it all the time, no joke. Either way, those guys don't last long.
You personally, Walt, started with planer blade knives, had loads of problems, asked for advice on how to fix them, got better advice than you asked for from many forum members, jumped in with both feet and the energy of the tasmanian devil into making handles and grinding blades from new knives with known steel, had some difficulties, abandoned that, went back to the planer blade knives and then jumped into posts about forge welding cable damascus and chainsaw chain. This is a huge red flag to me, my Friend. I'm afraid we're about to watch history repeat itself once again.
You need to think seriously about what direction you want to go here or you're going to lose the interest of those that want to help you succeed. Walt, hear me clearly on this: I want you to succeed. I'm pulling for you. I don't want you to be one of those guys that isn't around in another few months. I want you to do better all the time. I want you to be the best knife maker you can be.
I needed to be clear about that last statement.
Last edited:
J. Doyle
Dealer - Purveyor
Now Walt, to best help you, I've copied and pasted some info from another site I frequent. It is THE most complete resource for EVERYTHING you need to make a knife from start to finish that I can think of. EVERYTHING! You will have to read through and sort through and see what works for you and what doesn't. I'm not saying the info in it is right, wrong or indifferent. Everything from links to materials to WIP threads and info on every aspect of making a knife tailored perfectly to beginners. This is the best help I can think of for you.
This is continually added to, updated and compiled for free for new makers by a fellow that goes by 'The Count'. It was a lot of work for him to compile this info and keep it updated so we should all be grateful.
Pay particular attention to any of the videos, tutorials and WIP threads from Nick Wheeler. And the "Don't be this guy" you tube video link under the 'Videos' heading is something we can all enjoy and benefit from.
The Count's Standard Reply to New Knifemakers V35
The answer to a student is different than to a retired machinist
With members worldwide, you may have a local supplier, hammerin or neighbour.
Join our community;fill out your profile with location (Country, State, City), age, education, employment and hobbies so we get a sense of where and who you are.
The basics in the simplest terms
Absolute Cheapskate Way to Start Making Knives-Printable PDF
http://www.2shared.com/document/hk4w...ay_to_Sta.html
Web Tutorials
Detailed instructions http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/sh...d.php?t=694673
Things I Advise New Makers Against-Printable PDF http://www.mediafire.com/?8og1ix21j9dcz4n
Handle Tutorial - Nick Wheeler-PDF http://www.mediafire.com/?02ra4do6xyzayeq
http://www4.gvsu.edu/triert/cache/ar...w1/scales1.htm
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/sh...metal-with-you
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/sh...gral-tag-along
Bob Egnath how to http://www.engnath.com/manframe.htm
Books
A list of books and videos http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/sh...7&postcount=43
BladeForums - E-books or Google books http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/sh...d.php?t=603203
Books I like:
David Boye-Step by Step Knifemaking
Tim McCreight-Custom Knifemaking: 10 Projects from a Master Craftsman
Clear, well organized, available and inexpensive.
Forging Books:
Lorelei Sims-The Backyard Blacksmith - A modern book with colour photos - forging - no knifemaking.
Jim Hrisoulas
The Complete Bladesmith: Forging Your Way to Perfection
The Pattern-Welded Blade: Artistry in Iron
The Master Bladesmith: Advanced Studies in Steel
Machine Shop Basics -Books:
Elementary Machine Shop Practice-Printable PDF Http://www.archive.org/download/elem...00palmrich.pdf
The Complete Practical Machinist-Printable -1885-PDF http://ia700309.us.archive.org/6/ite...00rosegoog.pdf
Right Click and save
The $50 knife Shop-not recommended
Great title, but NOT gospel.
Forging is NOT necessary; file and grind (stock removal)
Forget the "Goop Quench" It's Bullsh*t
Back when they used whale oil, it was still liquid oil
Use a commercial quench oil & match oil speed to steel type;
Grocery store canola oil works for some steels like 1084
Junkyard steel requires skill and experience to identify and heat treat
Forget Lawnmower blades and railroad spikes, start with a new known steel
Good heat treating needs accurate temperature control and full quench
Proper steel like 1084FG from Aldo is inexpensive and quench in Canola
Cable damascus is an advanced project has no place in a beginner’s book
The grinders are the best thing about this book, but 2x72” belt grinders plans are now free on the web
Videos
Don't be this guy
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gEOTtslHARQ
Heat Treating Basics Video-downloadable
Right click and save this. Watch it once a day for 10 days http://www.archive.org/download/gov....vnb1_512kb.mp4
Safety-video
Right click and save this. Watch it once a day for 10 days http://www.howtomakeaknife.net/FreeS...afetyVideo.wmv
Many knifemaking videos are available, some better than others
The best beginner videos I have seen:
“Steve Johnson-Making a Sub-Hilt Fighter”
"Ed Caffrey - Basic Bladesmithing-Full DVD-ISO"
“Custom Knife Sheaths -Chuck Burrows - Wild Rose”
Paul Long has 2 videos, his sheath work & videos are fantastic and recommended, but more advanced-with inlays, tooling and machine stitching
Green Pete's Free Video
Making a Mora bushcraft knife, stock removal, hand tools, neo tribal / unplugged heat treat
Use a piece of known 1084 steel, not a file. This as an example of doing it by hand with few tools
"Green Pete" posted it free
Be sure to look at the other titles I mentioned too - spend some time searching knifemaking torrents
Greenpete Knifemaking Basics-on TPB
http://thepiratebay.org/torrent/4995...ushcraft_Knife
How to download that video
http://www.utorrent.com/help/guides/beginners-guide
Videos for rent,read the reviews, Some good, some bad, expect to wait months and there have been no new videos in years.
http://smartflix.com/store/category/9/Knifemaking
Knife Design:
Think thin, simple and fixed
Forget swords, saw-teeth, guthooks, crazy grinds and folders for your first knife
Look at hundreds of photos
Lloyd Harding drawings, Loveless book & Bob Engnath Patterns
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/sh...d.php?t=603203
Bob Engnath Patterns PDF http://www.mediafire.com/?qgx7yebn77n77qx
http://knifemaking.altervista.org/index_disegni_en.html
Start with a drawing and post it, we love photos
French curves, graph paper and erasers are vital tools
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_bHFtVNs9tW...ch%2BCurve.jpg
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/sh...0#post13120810
Then a cardboard cutout template & with handles, pins and such
Use playdough to shape a comfortable handle, good handles are not flat
How to post a photo
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/sh...on-BladeForums
Draw Filing Demonstration
YouTube video -Draw Filing-for a flat finish http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dec78RQsokw
Nick Wheeler- Hand sanding 101 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4I4x4QLpfnk
Steel
The “welding steel” at Home Depot / Lowes is useless for knives
Forget about lawnmower blades ,files, railroad spikes and other unknown junkyard steels
For the work involved, it is very cheap to buy and use a known good steel
You will spend more money on sandpaper or soda pop than you will for steel
If you send out for heat treating, you can use
Oil quenched O1, 1095, 1084
Or air quenched A2, CM154, ATS34, CPM154, 440C, Elmax plus many others.
For heat treating yourself with minimal equipment, find Eutectoid steel and quench in Canola oil.
1084FG sold by Aldo Bruno is formulated for Knifemaking, Cheap & made for DIY heat-treat.
http://njsteelbaron.com/
Phone # 862-203-8160
His telephone service is better than his website.
Suppliers List
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/sh...d.php?t=699736
Heat Treating
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/sh...84&postcount=7
You can send blades out for heat treating at $10 or $15 per blade for perfect results
Air Hardening Stainless Steel Only
Buck Pau Bos -Be sure to check the Shipping and Price tabs
http://www.buckknives.com/index.cfm?event=bio.paulBos#
http://www.texasknife.com/vcom/privacy.php#services
Oil Hardening Carbon Steels and Air Hardening Stainless Steel
http://www.petersheattreat.com/cutlery.html
http://www.knifemaker.ca/ (Canadian)
FAQ's
http://www.hypefreeblades.com/faq.html
1095 is a bad choice for a beginner with limited equipment to HT themselves
1095 is "Hypereutectioid" and needs precise temperature control and proper fast quench oil Like Parks 50 or Houghton K
Kevin Cashen - 1095 - hypereutectoid steel
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/sh...ee-steel-types
If you are sending one or 2 knives out for heat treatment, use 154-CM or CPM-154 CPM-s35vn Elmax, and ship it out to TKS -Texas Knifemaker Supply
It's the cheapest way to do 1 or 2 due to minimum charges
Quenchants for Oil hardening steel
Forget the Goop Quench and Motor oil, especially used oil
Use commercial quench oil & match oil speed to the steel type
Explanation and classification oil speeds
http://knifedogs.com/showthread.php?...g-II-Quenching
Grocery store canola oil works well enough for your first knife-if you use the right steel like 1084
Brine and water are cheap for "water hardening" steels W1 and 1095, but use fast oils Parks 50 & Houghton Houghto Quench K
If you use water or brine, expect a broken blade
Hot steel beats plastic, Don't quench in a plastic pail
Glue – Epoxy
Use new slow setting 30 min high strength epoxy to attach handles and seal out moisture
Slow epoxy is stronger and gives you time to work
prep, measure, mix are key in glueing.
Surface Prep is vital, drill tang holes/ grind a hollow, roughen the surfaces with abrasive or blasting is best
Ensure the surface is clean including fingerprints, wear vinyl or nitrile gloves
Use Acetone or Blasting
Don't over-clamp a “glue starved joint” is weak - adhesive is squeezed out
West Systems G Flex http://www.westsystem.com/ss/g-flex-epoxy/
Find it locally http://www.westsystem.com/ss/where-to-buy/
Brownell's Acraglas
JB Weld-leaves a grey line
Grinder / Tools
Hand Tools
You can do it by hand with files and abrasive like the Green Pete video.
Use 1084 instead of a file, spheroid annealed steel is butter soft
Stacy - 10 Tools
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/sh...7#post11983527
Filing jigs
http://www.flemingknives.com/imagesP...n/KPicB007.jpg
Http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8486/8...2b9fc8da_b.jpg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r9iNDRwwBQQ#t=330
Grinders
A professional three or four wheel 2x72 is worth it
In my opinion, variable speed and a small wheel attachment are essential on a good grinder.
Tracking problems are usually solved with belt tension. It needs to be way tighter than you first think.
Entry Level Grinders
Sears Craftsman 2x42 belt grinder
Low Speed Modification Craftsman 2x42 belt grinder http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2qfYT_m2Tw0
Commercial Production 2 x 72” Belt Grinder Reviews
http://www.prometheanknives.com/shop...ues-3/grinders
DIY 2 x 72” Belt Grinders
KMG Clone Free Plans
http://www.metalwebnews.com/manuals/knife-grinder.pdf
NWG No Weld Grinder $25 plans
http://usaknifemaker.com/plans-for-t...-50-pages.html
EERF Grinder (EERF =“Free” backwards)
http://www.wilmontgrinders.com/Pages/EERFGrinder.aspx
http://blindhogg.com/blueprints.html
http://polarbearforge.com/grinder_kit.html
What Belts to buy?
Every maker has a different preference, new belts come out all the time, search for recent threads.
Ceramic, trizact and structured belts are expensive and have long life. Aluminium oxide are cheap and wear quickly
Some belts have rigid backing, J-flex have soft backing and can blend curves.
Blaze and Cubitron are popular
VFD Variable Speed made simple
Step pulleys are not as cheap as you may think
Maska steel pulleys are good, plus shaft, bearings, belt
It all adds up to 1/2 the price of a sealed class NEMA 4 VFD like a KB Electronics KBAC-27D
I like direct drive with no belts, a VFD and 3 phase motor for about $200 over the price of the step pulleys with fine instant control.
NEMA 1 VFD’s will keep your fingers out, but the metallic dust intrusion will smoke it.
Motor
3 phase 220v 1.5 HP motor, TEFC, frame 56 or 56C,
RPM is up to you some use 1700 RPM at double speed.
Make sure it has a footed base for the KMG and NWG, or a C flange face mount for Bader, Bee, Wilton and GIB styles.
I get them on ebay, even with paying $100 for shipping to Canada I save $ on used motors
The 1.5 HP combination is the most common
It allows you to plug into any 110vac, 15 amp outlet.
A 2 HP motor requires a 220vac input.
VFD
KBAC-27D
http://www.kbelectronics.com/Variabl...s_NEMA_4X.html
http://www.kbelectronics.com/manuals/kbda_manual.pdf
Use the Distributor Locator to find a local source, online sources may be cheaper.
There are cheaper units, but the only VFD I have found that runs a 1.5 HP motor on a 110v 15 amp input is the KBAC-27D
It is NEMA 4, sealed from metal dust
Good community and company support, manuals, hook-up diagrams, photos and settings.
If you buy a bargain vfd, you're stuck with a chinglish manual and ridiculous programming.
Travis W reports running a 2 HP on a 110v circuit, but I haven’t tried it.
Hookup is simple
http://www.beaumontmetalworks.com/VS-setup.html
Safety Equipment
Protect your -Eyes, Ears, Fingers, and Lungs – remove jewellery and use safety gear.
Respirators
Chronic lung disease and cancer really suck the joy out of life.
If you can't breathe, nothing else matters.
Wearing a mask and glasses on the top of your head doesn't Count.
The minimum I would consider are silicone half masks with a P100 Filter
The silicone masks are softer and fit better
3M 7500
http://multimedia.3m.com/mws/mediawe...n=CH7500FP.pdf
and North 7700
http://www.amazon.com/North-Safety-7.../dp/B002C08YCW
http://www.amazon.com/North-7580P100..._bxgy_hi_img_b.
Use a VOC & P100 combo cartridge for acetone and glue fumes.
Prefilters can snap over the main filter for longer life.
There are 3 sizes of face piece, get fitted in person
Shave, also test the fit every time.
For beards
3M PAPR
Resp-O-Rator
3m Breathe Easy
Trend Airshield Pro
Air Cap II
Search
This searches BF well.
http://www.google.com/cse/home?cx=01...%3Aqfobr3dlcra
Get rich making knives ?
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/sh...4#post11980504
Visit a shop in person
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/sh...-a-shop-invite
V35 July 23, 2014
This is continually added to, updated and compiled for free for new makers by a fellow that goes by 'The Count'. It was a lot of work for him to compile this info and keep it updated so we should all be grateful.
Pay particular attention to any of the videos, tutorials and WIP threads from Nick Wheeler. And the "Don't be this guy" you tube video link under the 'Videos' heading is something we can all enjoy and benefit from.
The Count's Standard Reply to New Knifemakers V35
The answer to a student is different than to a retired machinist
With members worldwide, you may have a local supplier, hammerin or neighbour.
Join our community;fill out your profile with location (Country, State, City), age, education, employment and hobbies so we get a sense of where and who you are.
The basics in the simplest terms
Absolute Cheapskate Way to Start Making Knives-Printable PDF
http://www.2shared.com/document/hk4w...ay_to_Sta.html
Web Tutorials
Detailed instructions http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/sh...d.php?t=694673
Things I Advise New Makers Against-Printable PDF http://www.mediafire.com/?8og1ix21j9dcz4n
Handle Tutorial - Nick Wheeler-PDF http://www.mediafire.com/?02ra4do6xyzayeq
http://www4.gvsu.edu/triert/cache/ar...w1/scales1.htm
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/sh...metal-with-you
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/sh...gral-tag-along
Bob Egnath how to http://www.engnath.com/manframe.htm
Books
A list of books and videos http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/sh...7&postcount=43
BladeForums - E-books or Google books http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/sh...d.php?t=603203
Books I like:
David Boye-Step by Step Knifemaking
Tim McCreight-Custom Knifemaking: 10 Projects from a Master Craftsman
Clear, well organized, available and inexpensive.
Forging Books:
Lorelei Sims-The Backyard Blacksmith - A modern book with colour photos - forging - no knifemaking.
Jim Hrisoulas
The Complete Bladesmith: Forging Your Way to Perfection
The Pattern-Welded Blade: Artistry in Iron
The Master Bladesmith: Advanced Studies in Steel
Machine Shop Basics -Books:
Elementary Machine Shop Practice-Printable PDF Http://www.archive.org/download/elem...00palmrich.pdf
The Complete Practical Machinist-Printable -1885-PDF http://ia700309.us.archive.org/6/ite...00rosegoog.pdf
Right Click and save
The $50 knife Shop-not recommended
Great title, but NOT gospel.
Forging is NOT necessary; file and grind (stock removal)
Forget the "Goop Quench" It's Bullsh*t
Back when they used whale oil, it was still liquid oil
Use a commercial quench oil & match oil speed to steel type;
Grocery store canola oil works for some steels like 1084
Junkyard steel requires skill and experience to identify and heat treat
Forget Lawnmower blades and railroad spikes, start with a new known steel
Good heat treating needs accurate temperature control and full quench
Proper steel like 1084FG from Aldo is inexpensive and quench in Canola
Cable damascus is an advanced project has no place in a beginner’s book
The grinders are the best thing about this book, but 2x72” belt grinders plans are now free on the web
Videos
Don't be this guy
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gEOTtslHARQ
Heat Treating Basics Video-downloadable
Right click and save this. Watch it once a day for 10 days http://www.archive.org/download/gov....vnb1_512kb.mp4
Safety-video
Right click and save this. Watch it once a day for 10 days http://www.howtomakeaknife.net/FreeS...afetyVideo.wmv
Many knifemaking videos are available, some better than others
The best beginner videos I have seen:
“Steve Johnson-Making a Sub-Hilt Fighter”
"Ed Caffrey - Basic Bladesmithing-Full DVD-ISO"
“Custom Knife Sheaths -Chuck Burrows - Wild Rose”
Paul Long has 2 videos, his sheath work & videos are fantastic and recommended, but more advanced-with inlays, tooling and machine stitching
Green Pete's Free Video
Making a Mora bushcraft knife, stock removal, hand tools, neo tribal / unplugged heat treat
Use a piece of known 1084 steel, not a file. This as an example of doing it by hand with few tools
"Green Pete" posted it free
Be sure to look at the other titles I mentioned too - spend some time searching knifemaking torrents
Greenpete Knifemaking Basics-on TPB
http://thepiratebay.org/torrent/4995...ushcraft_Knife
How to download that video
http://www.utorrent.com/help/guides/beginners-guide
Videos for rent,read the reviews, Some good, some bad, expect to wait months and there have been no new videos in years.
http://smartflix.com/store/category/9/Knifemaking
Knife Design:
Think thin, simple and fixed
Forget swords, saw-teeth, guthooks, crazy grinds and folders for your first knife
Look at hundreds of photos
Lloyd Harding drawings, Loveless book & Bob Engnath Patterns
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/sh...d.php?t=603203
Bob Engnath Patterns PDF http://www.mediafire.com/?qgx7yebn77n77qx
http://knifemaking.altervista.org/index_disegni_en.html
Start with a drawing and post it, we love photos
French curves, graph paper and erasers are vital tools
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_bHFtVNs9tW...ch%2BCurve.jpg
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/sh...0#post13120810
Then a cardboard cutout template & with handles, pins and such
Use playdough to shape a comfortable handle, good handles are not flat
How to post a photo
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/sh...on-BladeForums
Draw Filing Demonstration
YouTube video -Draw Filing-for a flat finish http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dec78RQsokw
Nick Wheeler- Hand sanding 101 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4I4x4QLpfnk
Steel
The “welding steel” at Home Depot / Lowes is useless for knives
Forget about lawnmower blades ,files, railroad spikes and other unknown junkyard steels
For the work involved, it is very cheap to buy and use a known good steel
You will spend more money on sandpaper or soda pop than you will for steel
If you send out for heat treating, you can use
Oil quenched O1, 1095, 1084
Or air quenched A2, CM154, ATS34, CPM154, 440C, Elmax plus many others.
For heat treating yourself with minimal equipment, find Eutectoid steel and quench in Canola oil.
1084FG sold by Aldo Bruno is formulated for Knifemaking, Cheap & made for DIY heat-treat.
http://njsteelbaron.com/
Phone # 862-203-8160
His telephone service is better than his website.
Suppliers List
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/sh...d.php?t=699736
Heat Treating
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/sh...84&postcount=7
You can send blades out for heat treating at $10 or $15 per blade for perfect results
Air Hardening Stainless Steel Only
Buck Pau Bos -Be sure to check the Shipping and Price tabs
http://www.buckknives.com/index.cfm?event=bio.paulBos#
http://www.texasknife.com/vcom/privacy.php#services
Oil Hardening Carbon Steels and Air Hardening Stainless Steel
http://www.petersheattreat.com/cutlery.html
http://www.knifemaker.ca/ (Canadian)
FAQ's
http://www.hypefreeblades.com/faq.html
1095 is a bad choice for a beginner with limited equipment to HT themselves
1095 is "Hypereutectioid" and needs precise temperature control and proper fast quench oil Like Parks 50 or Houghton K
Kevin Cashen - 1095 - hypereutectoid steel
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/sh...ee-steel-types
If you are sending one or 2 knives out for heat treatment, use 154-CM or CPM-154 CPM-s35vn Elmax, and ship it out to TKS -Texas Knifemaker Supply
It's the cheapest way to do 1 or 2 due to minimum charges
Quenchants for Oil hardening steel
Forget the Goop Quench and Motor oil, especially used oil
Use commercial quench oil & match oil speed to the steel type
Explanation and classification oil speeds
http://knifedogs.com/showthread.php?...g-II-Quenching
Grocery store canola oil works well enough for your first knife-if you use the right steel like 1084
Brine and water are cheap for "water hardening" steels W1 and 1095, but use fast oils Parks 50 & Houghton Houghto Quench K
If you use water or brine, expect a broken blade
Hot steel beats plastic, Don't quench in a plastic pail
Glue – Epoxy
Use new slow setting 30 min high strength epoxy to attach handles and seal out moisture
Slow epoxy is stronger and gives you time to work
prep, measure, mix are key in glueing.
Surface Prep is vital, drill tang holes/ grind a hollow, roughen the surfaces with abrasive or blasting is best
Ensure the surface is clean including fingerprints, wear vinyl or nitrile gloves
Use Acetone or Blasting
Don't over-clamp a “glue starved joint” is weak - adhesive is squeezed out
West Systems G Flex http://www.westsystem.com/ss/g-flex-epoxy/
Find it locally http://www.westsystem.com/ss/where-to-buy/
Brownell's Acraglas
JB Weld-leaves a grey line
Grinder / Tools
Hand Tools
You can do it by hand with files and abrasive like the Green Pete video.
Use 1084 instead of a file, spheroid annealed steel is butter soft
Stacy - 10 Tools
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/sh...7#post11983527
Filing jigs
http://www.flemingknives.com/imagesP...n/KPicB007.jpg
Http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8486/8...2b9fc8da_b.jpg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r9iNDRwwBQQ#t=330
Grinders
A professional three or four wheel 2x72 is worth it
In my opinion, variable speed and a small wheel attachment are essential on a good grinder.
Tracking problems are usually solved with belt tension. It needs to be way tighter than you first think.
Entry Level Grinders
Sears Craftsman 2x42 belt grinder
Low Speed Modification Craftsman 2x42 belt grinder http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2qfYT_m2Tw0
Commercial Production 2 x 72” Belt Grinder Reviews
http://www.prometheanknives.com/shop...ues-3/grinders
DIY 2 x 72” Belt Grinders
KMG Clone Free Plans
http://www.metalwebnews.com/manuals/knife-grinder.pdf
NWG No Weld Grinder $25 plans
http://usaknifemaker.com/plans-for-t...-50-pages.html
EERF Grinder (EERF =“Free” backwards)
http://www.wilmontgrinders.com/Pages/EERFGrinder.aspx
http://blindhogg.com/blueprints.html
http://polarbearforge.com/grinder_kit.html
What Belts to buy?
Every maker has a different preference, new belts come out all the time, search for recent threads.
Ceramic, trizact and structured belts are expensive and have long life. Aluminium oxide are cheap and wear quickly
Some belts have rigid backing, J-flex have soft backing and can blend curves.
Blaze and Cubitron are popular
VFD Variable Speed made simple
Step pulleys are not as cheap as you may think
Maska steel pulleys are good, plus shaft, bearings, belt
It all adds up to 1/2 the price of a sealed class NEMA 4 VFD like a KB Electronics KBAC-27D
I like direct drive with no belts, a VFD and 3 phase motor for about $200 over the price of the step pulleys with fine instant control.
NEMA 1 VFD’s will keep your fingers out, but the metallic dust intrusion will smoke it.
Motor
3 phase 220v 1.5 HP motor, TEFC, frame 56 or 56C,
RPM is up to you some use 1700 RPM at double speed.
Make sure it has a footed base for the KMG and NWG, or a C flange face mount for Bader, Bee, Wilton and GIB styles.
I get them on ebay, even with paying $100 for shipping to Canada I save $ on used motors
The 1.5 HP combination is the most common
It allows you to plug into any 110vac, 15 amp outlet.
A 2 HP motor requires a 220vac input.
VFD
KBAC-27D
http://www.kbelectronics.com/Variabl...s_NEMA_4X.html
http://www.kbelectronics.com/manuals/kbda_manual.pdf
Use the Distributor Locator to find a local source, online sources may be cheaper.
There are cheaper units, but the only VFD I have found that runs a 1.5 HP motor on a 110v 15 amp input is the KBAC-27D
It is NEMA 4, sealed from metal dust
Good community and company support, manuals, hook-up diagrams, photos and settings.
If you buy a bargain vfd, you're stuck with a chinglish manual and ridiculous programming.
Travis W reports running a 2 HP on a 110v circuit, but I haven’t tried it.
Hookup is simple
http://www.beaumontmetalworks.com/VS-setup.html
Safety Equipment
Protect your -Eyes, Ears, Fingers, and Lungs – remove jewellery and use safety gear.
Respirators
Chronic lung disease and cancer really suck the joy out of life.
If you can't breathe, nothing else matters.
Wearing a mask and glasses on the top of your head doesn't Count.
The minimum I would consider are silicone half masks with a P100 Filter
The silicone masks are softer and fit better
3M 7500
http://multimedia.3m.com/mws/mediawe...n=CH7500FP.pdf
and North 7700
http://www.amazon.com/North-Safety-7.../dp/B002C08YCW
http://www.amazon.com/North-7580P100..._bxgy_hi_img_b.
Use a VOC & P100 combo cartridge for acetone and glue fumes.
Prefilters can snap over the main filter for longer life.
There are 3 sizes of face piece, get fitted in person
Shave, also test the fit every time.
For beards
3M PAPR
Resp-O-Rator
3m Breathe Easy
Trend Airshield Pro
Air Cap II
Search
This searches BF well.
http://www.google.com/cse/home?cx=01...%3Aqfobr3dlcra
Get rich making knives ?
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/sh...4#post11980504
Visit a shop in person
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/sh...-a-shop-invite
V35 July 23, 2014
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Freds Edge
Well-Known Member
John wonderful reference guide , I'm adding it to my tutorial folder.
Fred
Fred
Keith Willis
Well-Known Member
Walt...It don't get much better or clearer than that..... Tell ya what, I have been helped out many, many times over the years from those on this forum....
If you will read, watch and read and watch again all the info Mr. Doyle has given you..... give me your address and a few days ,I will get some things together
and send to you...It will cost you nothing, I just ask that you take your time .. learn what you can and make the best knife you can.
The steel I have on hand is 1/8 1080,..I know that is not as heavy a steel as you may want , but I have made many skinning knives from 1/8 steel and they work great.
and it is easy to ht
God bless
If you will read, watch and read and watch again all the info Mr. Doyle has given you..... give me your address and a few days ,I will get some things together
and send to you...It will cost you nothing, I just ask that you take your time .. learn what you can and make the best knife you can.
The steel I have on hand is 1/8 1080,..I know that is not as heavy a steel as you may want , but I have made many skinning knives from 1/8 steel and they work great.
and it is easy to ht
God bless
J. Doyle
Dealer - Purveyor
I'll throw in a personal story here too.
When I first started making knives, I was pretty proud of my first 3 or 4. I was living in Montana at the time. I had some questions and sought out some help and found out that ABS Master Smith Jon Christensen lived literally 15 minutes up the road from me. I called him up out of the blue and asked if I could come to his shop some day and talk for a few minutes. It was awkward for both of us and I could hear the hesitation in Jon's voice but he agreed to give me a few minutes of his time and the end of his following work day.
I took my first few knives over to Jon's and showed them to him. He looked them over for a while and didn't say much. I asked him straight out for HONEST critique. Well..............in Jon's ever polite and soft spoken way, he opened the flood gates and I got much more than I was expecting. He said, "Yeah, these are what I call '5 pound' knives. They're heavy and clunky, cumbersome to use. Your plunge lines are pretty rough, the handles have sharp corners on them and your cutting edges are way too thick."
I didn't know what to say. At first I was upset, my feelings were hurt. I thought they were really nice. Jon looked at me and said, "In fact, they remind me a lot of my first knives." There was a turning point right there for me. I realized that Jon hadn't attacked me personally and really had done exactly what I asked him to do. He must have seen something too because he invited me back for some pointers later in the week.
That ultimately led to about a two year apprenticeship of sorts (until I sadly moved away) where I had pretty much free reign to come and go to Jon's shop as I pleased. I spent as much time as I could there. We made knives together, we became friends and fished together and hunted together. I sat with Jon and his family at their table and we shared meals together. Jon to this day is one of my very best friends.
That was only a few short years ago. I won't compare my knives to anyone else's but I'll say that my knives today are light years ahead of where they were when I first went to his shop. And I've come to see my first knives in the same true light that Jon saw them. And it was all because Jon cared enough about me being a good knife maker and cared enough to be a true friend that he told me the honest truth, not what I wanted to hear. That's a true friend and I had to learn to put my ego aside and accept that and I'm a better maker today because of that.
When I first started making knives, I was pretty proud of my first 3 or 4. I was living in Montana at the time. I had some questions and sought out some help and found out that ABS Master Smith Jon Christensen lived literally 15 minutes up the road from me. I called him up out of the blue and asked if I could come to his shop some day and talk for a few minutes. It was awkward for both of us and I could hear the hesitation in Jon's voice but he agreed to give me a few minutes of his time and the end of his following work day.
I took my first few knives over to Jon's and showed them to him. He looked them over for a while and didn't say much. I asked him straight out for HONEST critique. Well..............in Jon's ever polite and soft spoken way, he opened the flood gates and I got much more than I was expecting. He said, "Yeah, these are what I call '5 pound' knives. They're heavy and clunky, cumbersome to use. Your plunge lines are pretty rough, the handles have sharp corners on them and your cutting edges are way too thick."
I didn't know what to say. At first I was upset, my feelings were hurt. I thought they were really nice. Jon looked at me and said, "In fact, they remind me a lot of my first knives." There was a turning point right there for me. I realized that Jon hadn't attacked me personally and really had done exactly what I asked him to do. He must have seen something too because he invited me back for some pointers later in the week.
That ultimately led to about a two year apprenticeship of sorts (until I sadly moved away) where I had pretty much free reign to come and go to Jon's shop as I pleased. I spent as much time as I could there. We made knives together, we became friends and fished together and hunted together. I sat with Jon and his family at their table and we shared meals together. Jon to this day is one of my very best friends.
That was only a few short years ago. I won't compare my knives to anyone else's but I'll say that my knives today are light years ahead of where they were when I first went to his shop. And I've come to see my first knives in the same true light that Jon saw them. And it was all because Jon cared enough about me being a good knife maker and cared enough to be a true friend that he told me the honest truth, not what I wanted to hear. That's a true friend and I had to learn to put my ego aside and accept that and I'm a better maker today because of that.
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I can feel your pain John.
Wall-e,
John initially gave you a huge head start into your knifemaking hobby with his advice and materials to succeed. If you find no value in his help, look at his knives and then yours...you can only come to one conclusion. Do the man justice and use whats been offered, the poor guy has gone above and beyond.
Rudy
Wall-e,
John initially gave you a huge head start into your knifemaking hobby with his advice and materials to succeed. If you find no value in his help, look at his knives and then yours...you can only come to one conclusion. Do the man justice and use whats been offered, the poor guy has gone above and beyond.
Rudy
Jeremiah Rostig
Well-Known Member
That is a lot of good energy that John Doyle is giving You, Wall e.....
wall e
Well-Known Member
John I have a problem with being inquizitive and overly curious. I do have hopes to one day be able to make quality knives that are worth a crap.
There is no easy fix or a quick to do answer for doing anything. I have the springs at my house and was thinking to use as forging practice to learn how the forging process works.
It is true my time has alot of constraints and diverting from my current knives would waste time. Im frustrated with things at the moment such as making the plan to have knives turn out clean and straight and smooth. I know they are going to not be perfect.
I am making a knife for my grandfather out of one of the blades he gave me to use for christmas. I have been working on this knife on and off for months.
I am not abandoning the known steel knives I just wanted to make this knife for him for sentiment reasons.
I made the other two for my buddie to give to his inlaws. I got frustrated and needed a break from being inside and have nothing to do due to the knives being in transit since I thought I had done a good enough job for ht.
That is the issue good enough thinking. There is no such thing as good enough. Is either done or not.
I have squirreled away almost enough to get a bar of known steel. To most reading this a bare of steel is 15 bucks shipped from aldo roughly. To me the spare change is my issue.
I am not looking for any more than I have gotten from every one of you help, wisdom, tips, pointers, and reminders of not to do dumb sht.
My question for all of you is do you remember the frustration of getting a blade sanded to 220 only to look at it from an odd angle in a different light to find a 1/4 long scratch hiding? Do you remember the time spent looking at videos and pics and reading on how to do things right?
The big ideas and dreams of success at doing something and wanting to be able to.do it all?
I am venting my personal bs on here and getting out the frustration I hope all can relate to. I know every one means the best and truly wants me to achieve my hope of actually making a knife to be proud of not the crap that I am making.
I am feeling that this is a trade that isnt for the broke and scraping by.
I have a big issue with highs and lows in life due to ptsd and feeling like no matter what I do doesnt make dam bit of difference.
I have crap for equiptment and am feeling more and more like Im just wasting every ones time by posting anything that I have done with my shitty scavanged free materials. I constantly am fkn dreaming of alm these big ideas and have all my life and 85 to 90 percent of them I make happen.
So if my vent is going to get me booted from here then so be it. I dont expect anything from any one that I havent earned or brought onto myself.
Im my own worst enemy and trying to rush is causing problems for all that I have done or tried to do.
I have big friggin dreams and ideas and dont see eye to eye with everyone else all the time. I am not a fkn quitter and will do what I said Im going to do and there will be knives made from the starter materials I was givin to have a known material to start with.
My problem is that I am essentially starting over on making a knife.
The softer steel is not even close to the same to work with as the planer blades. If I dig too hard on the 1084 it gets a huge gouge and I have spent hrs sanding only to still have it staring at me. I have the blade to a dimes thickness at the edge and feel that Im going to screw it up and waste my effort and time. I guess is gonna be if its gonna be.
I am not meaning any disrespect or to blow off what advice has been given am just frustrated and feeling like a failure.
There is no easy fix or a quick to do answer for doing anything. I have the springs at my house and was thinking to use as forging practice to learn how the forging process works.
It is true my time has alot of constraints and diverting from my current knives would waste time. Im frustrated with things at the moment such as making the plan to have knives turn out clean and straight and smooth. I know they are going to not be perfect.
I am making a knife for my grandfather out of one of the blades he gave me to use for christmas. I have been working on this knife on and off for months.
I am not abandoning the known steel knives I just wanted to make this knife for him for sentiment reasons.
I made the other two for my buddie to give to his inlaws. I got frustrated and needed a break from being inside and have nothing to do due to the knives being in transit since I thought I had done a good enough job for ht.
That is the issue good enough thinking. There is no such thing as good enough. Is either done or not.
I have squirreled away almost enough to get a bar of known steel. To most reading this a bare of steel is 15 bucks shipped from aldo roughly. To me the spare change is my issue.
I am not looking for any more than I have gotten from every one of you help, wisdom, tips, pointers, and reminders of not to do dumb sht.
My question for all of you is do you remember the frustration of getting a blade sanded to 220 only to look at it from an odd angle in a different light to find a 1/4 long scratch hiding? Do you remember the time spent looking at videos and pics and reading on how to do things right?
The big ideas and dreams of success at doing something and wanting to be able to.do it all?
I am venting my personal bs on here and getting out the frustration I hope all can relate to. I know every one means the best and truly wants me to achieve my hope of actually making a knife to be proud of not the crap that I am making.
I am feeling that this is a trade that isnt for the broke and scraping by.
I have a big issue with highs and lows in life due to ptsd and feeling like no matter what I do doesnt make dam bit of difference.
I have crap for equiptment and am feeling more and more like Im just wasting every ones time by posting anything that I have done with my shitty scavanged free materials. I constantly am fkn dreaming of alm these big ideas and have all my life and 85 to 90 percent of them I make happen.
So if my vent is going to get me booted from here then so be it. I dont expect anything from any one that I havent earned or brought onto myself.
Im my own worst enemy and trying to rush is causing problems for all that I have done or tried to do.
I have big friggin dreams and ideas and dont see eye to eye with everyone else all the time. I am not a fkn quitter and will do what I said Im going to do and there will be knives made from the starter materials I was givin to have a known material to start with.
My problem is that I am essentially starting over on making a knife.
The softer steel is not even close to the same to work with as the planer blades. If I dig too hard on the 1084 it gets a huge gouge and I have spent hrs sanding only to still have it staring at me. I have the blade to a dimes thickness at the edge and feel that Im going to screw it up and waste my effort and time. I guess is gonna be if its gonna be.
I am not meaning any disrespect or to blow off what advice has been given am just frustrated and feeling like a failure.
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Don't feel too bad. I have some good equipment here and W2 steel and am stalling because of the fear of screwing up. When I decided I was going to get into this I knew I would wreck some knives as part of the learning curve and I realize that it is OK to screw up. It's not in my nature to enjoy it and it is making me hesitant. Some days it's easier to do nothing.
Jeremiah Rostig
Well-Known Member
Wall e, I remember everything....allthe hours and days and years getting frustrated fighting a single flaw I made on every blade....we all remember.
I dare to say: dont start with forging....get a clean stock removal blade out first, after this you will know better how to make a blade out of a non paralell piece.
I read you are into tacticals, blade coating etc....all this comes after.
guys starting with forging have often problems switching to fine fit and finish, you practice fine work first, you will in future forge more beneficial for your own blades.
just a simple working blade with No!! plunge lines, grind cutting geometry up to the spine, plunge lines are no cutting geometrie at all and grinding nice plunge lines is something for those who can!!partially grind....still not your time to get tactical, to be exact.
and like I said in another thread to you: working with scrab steel is not worth it, it turns out at expensive and with lower carbon content and like John said: whats about time?.....dont waste it.
by the way spring steel with that high silicium content forges not easy and have less impact value ( I do not say that it is not good, but for my knives(for example)it performs not well enough, ...and this is the theoretical side: learn something about metalurgy and steel, this will help you find your way which steel for what for a knife you need, helps you mentally and practically.
I dare to say: dont start with forging....get a clean stock removal blade out first, after this you will know better how to make a blade out of a non paralell piece.
I read you are into tacticals, blade coating etc....all this comes after.
guys starting with forging have often problems switching to fine fit and finish, you practice fine work first, you will in future forge more beneficial for your own blades.
just a simple working blade with No!! plunge lines, grind cutting geometry up to the spine, plunge lines are no cutting geometrie at all and grinding nice plunge lines is something for those who can!!partially grind....still not your time to get tactical, to be exact.
and like I said in another thread to you: working with scrab steel is not worth it, it turns out at expensive and with lower carbon content and like John said: whats about time?.....dont waste it.
by the way spring steel with that high silicium content forges not easy and have less impact value ( I do not say that it is not good, but for my knives(for example)it performs not well enough, ...and this is the theoretical side: learn something about metalurgy and steel, this will help you find your way which steel for what for a knife you need, helps you mentally and practically.
wall e
Well-Known Member
KDX the best advice I was given on the procrastination is alot like baitin, you end up screwing yourself in the end. Lol
Jeremiah glad that you can remember all the newbie problems. Since I blasted all of this outta my system yesterday I am back to sanding and fine tuning my blades Im working on. Thank you to all who have advised and helped keep me on track despite my addish moments. Lol
Jeremiah glad that you can remember all the newbie problems. Since I blasted all of this outta my system yesterday I am back to sanding and fine tuning my blades Im working on. Thank you to all who have advised and helped keep me on track despite my addish moments. Lol
slatroni
Well-Known Member
Walt will this help?
This is a new pattern for me. Its a two piece tactical knife. I have about six hours into it at this point. When this came out of the fire, I had to tweek it and it didnt like that. I am still learning like most of the people who come to this sight. The trick is to not get down on yourself. Its a learning curve. Sometimes fun sometimes not so fun. Kick back and enjoy the ride. It will be worth it in the long run!
Steve
This is a new pattern for me. Its a two piece tactical knife. I have about six hours into it at this point. When this came out of the fire, I had to tweek it and it didnt like that. I am still learning like most of the people who come to this sight. The trick is to not get down on yourself. Its a learning curve. Sometimes fun sometimes not so fun. Kick back and enjoy the ride. It will be worth it in the long run!Steve