Religious Trauma Syndrome

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J. Doyle

Dealer - Purveyor
To be fair, most translations (newer anyhow) do include a footnote that that verse is not found in the oldest manuscripts, but MAY have been added later.

HOWEVER (and this is a big HOWEVER), that verse is only one of countless examples that infer a holy trinity. Psalm 2, for example seems to be a conversation between Father, Son and Spirit. Heck, even in the beginning of Genesis: Let us make man in OUR image.

To give perhaps a more Jewish centered anecdote, let's go back to the very first Jew and his wife: Abram and Sarai, whose names were subsequently changed to AbrAHam and SarAH. God changed their names when he entered into covenant with them, but notice how they were both changed, adding what would be in the hebrew language similar to our letter "H", but more specifically meant as "breath" or even "Spirit". One might derive from this that God's Holy Spirit entered Abraham and Sarah at this time. Pretty cool huh?

Now this isn't particularly as black and white as the verse that may or may not have originally been, but it does lend itself heavily to the concept, or at least is not contradictory.

Then there are Jesus' own words, "Before Abraham was, I AM", or "I and my Father are ONE", "if you've seen me you've seen the Father", so on and so forth.
Anybody who doubts that Jesus may have actually said and believed these things need only look to the fact that he was crucified BECAUSE he said and believed these things.

Long story short, it really doesn't matter if that verse was originally in the text, or even inspired by God, as dozens of other verses tie into the same idea.

After all, how would Christ's crucifixion mean much of anything, if he wasn't 100% Almighty God, as well as man?
Correct. My Bible contains the footnote about verse 8 too. Regardless...even if verse 8 was not original, verse 7 seems to have been and it makes the case just fine on it's own....as well as the rest of your post. :)
 

Drew Riley

Well-Known Member
...you guys are going to drive me to drinking,... more!. ;) too many questions and not enough time. Let me sleep on it. I don't have all the answers all neat and tidy in my mind yet... I'm sure they are in here somewhere though... the seeds are in my heart... maybe they just need a little water.
I'll never pretend to have all of the answers, and I'd guess that even the answers I may think I have, may not even all be correct.

But there returns that concept of "continually". As Paul encouraged in Philippians to "continue to work out your salvation...", or the Bereans continual study, or even David's example of continuous meditation on God's word/laws. It's not something we can pick up and finish learning, or set back down and forget.

Proverbs 25 It is the glory of God to conceal a matter, but the glory of kings to search it out.

Questions are good!
 

J. Doyle

Dealer - Purveyor
^^^This...absolutely.

Don't drink too much Tai....it isn't good for you either. :)

Hope you have a peaceful and restful night....sincerely.
 

One

Banned
I'll keep a tall glass of water close to my bed, eat some food first and keep a puke bucket close by.. :)
 
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Drew Riley

Well-Known Member
O.K. John. I don't think that verse is in line with Jewish tradition and because Yeshua was Jewish, I don't think he believes it either... Aside from that I have read some articles etc., that would seem to verify it was not in the oldest manuscripts... mostly Jewish though. I'm not Jewish, but I take their "voice" very seriously.

Growing up, all I ever knew about Jews came from Christians. I like to hear what they have to say, for themselves, from the inside.

Rabbi Tovia Singer has lots of information on the internet. You can search Google and Youtube to find out more.
https://outreachjudaism.org/

[video=youtube;ok9Esd9QX9E]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ok9Esd9QX9E[/video]
I watched the 'debate' between Rabbi Singer and Dr. Evans, and first I'll mention that I really don't think the "X" minutes you, "X" minutes me style of debate is ever very effective. Points are rushed through, questions become rhetorical and are rarely able to be thoroughly addressed, if at all, and there's really no effective way to rebut or even concur with the other speaker. Not to mention, condensing this vast of a subject into 30 minutes? Forget about it. I realize the intended audiences are people who have devoted years (and in some instances, multiple degrees) to the subject matter, as to not need as many blanks filled in, but still...

I'm not going to nit pick each and every little point from either party, but I did very much enjoy listening to Rabbi Singer. He clearly is VERY well versed in the Hebrew Bible, and obviously much of the "Christian" Bible. To see his passion for scriptures and God is absolutely inspiring, whether I agree with everything he says or not.
 

One

Banned
O.K. I got it! Here's the answer to all of your questions and theological problems, *LOVE*. Hope you can remember it. :)
 
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Drew Riley

Well-Known Member
O.K. I got it! Here's the answer to all of your questions and theological problems, *LOVE*. Hope you can remember it. :)
That's certainly a very key component:

Matthw 22:34But when the Pharisees heard that Jesus had silenced the Sadducees, they gathered themselves together. 35One of them, a lawyer, asked Him a question, testing Him, 36“Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law?” 37And He said to him, “ ‘YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND.’ 38“This is the great and foremost commandment. 39“The second is like it, ‘YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.’ 40“On these two commandments depend the whole Law and the Prophets.”

 

One

Banned
Very true Drew, thanks for pointing it out, and I also believe Yeshua taught that this truth transcends all others. :)

I think God desires love more than perfection, because *love IS perfection*.
 
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One

Banned
1 Corinthians 13:4-7New International Version (NIV)[SUP]4 [/SUP]Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. [SUP]5 [/SUP]It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. [SUP]6 [/SUP]Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. [SUP]7 [/SUP]It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.

Amen. (I agree with this definition, in as much as a few simple words can define it.)

The implications are profound in any loving relationship. All God wants is to Love and to be Loved. I don't think we are truly any different. :)

... Loving God and Loving one another go hand in hand and are essentially the same...

GOD wants US to Love Him back, to love Him in return,... be patient with Him, kind to Him, etc.,... not easily angered with Him, keep no records of His wrongs,... etc... protect, trust, hope, and persevere. This is amazing!!!
 
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One

Banned
... and with that last thought, I'm going on vacation for a few days.:)

Give God some LOVE!
 
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