Jigs: Curse or Cure?

I really like Les's point about people having a passing knowledge of something.

I think about 98% of the folks who get their panties in a twist about machining equipment would have a change of heart if they actually signed up for a couple of machining classes.

It's only easy when you don't actually have to prove that you can or can't do it. ;)




It's always fascinating where people draw the line on what's okay in the way of tools.
 
NickWheeler said:
I really like Les's point about people having a passing knowledge of something.

I think about 98% of the folks who get their panties in a twist about machining equipment would have a change of heart if they actually signed up for a couple of machining classes.

It's only easy when you don't actually have to prove that you can or can't do it. ;)




It's always fascinating where people draw the line on what's okay in the way of tools.
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2thumbs2thumbs

I ran a CNC milling machine for 8 years Nick,and I agree.When I first started
learning to write programs,using G-code programming,it all looked easy,but I never got real good at writing programs.I will say that even after you learn the programing,that was just half of it,you have to know where you want the part,how and where to clamp it to start off.There is a lot more to it than most would think.
I dream of the day I can have just a simple milling machine in my shop,but I would hate to know I had to go back in a machine shop to make a payday after being out for 7 years:bud:.It aint easy.

God bless,Keith
 
"It's always fascinating where people draw the line on what's okay in the way of tools." by Nick & quoted by Keith
I agree. Dozier

I pretty much wonder (get irritated) why some people think their lines are better than someone else's lines?
 
Here is my take on jigs. They are a tools and should be treatef as such. With that said I think what set makers apart from one another is not ne the grind but rather the fit and finish of the final product. if a person chooses to make a particular style knife and the jig fits their purpose, I say go for it. As collector and aspiring maker, for fit and finish is what matters. the grind is just one part of the process. Heat treating is a major part of the process and yet alot of people send their blades out. In that case, there is major part NOT being done by the maker.
 
I don't use a jigg to grind my bevels,I do use a tool rest to rest my hands on,I don't rest the knife on the tool rest,just my hands. This keeps my hands from hurting so bad at the end of the day. I learned to grind bevels and sharpen free hand and still sharpen free hand but switched to a tool rest for grinding bevels after attending Bill Rupel and Rusty Preston's Texas Slipjoint School and seeing how fast Bill can grind bevels using this method. Speed of getting the job done was the reason for switching to this method and a side benefit is that my hands don't ache as bad at the end of the day.
I have a good friend that I taught how to make knives,I showed him how to hollow grind freehand but he will not attempt it because of his fear of failure, he uses a jigg to grind flat bevels and they turn out very nice. I don't hold this against him.
I'll tell you all,I can MESS UP a knife just as badly using the tool rest as I can using the freehand method and I'll tell you this too,my knives are perfect untill I start grinding bevels and after that every pass is an attempt to correct the mistake I made on the previous pass. That is why I say, it is only by the Grace of God that I can make a knife at all!
 
I too agree we all need to learn to free hand grind. I have ground all my blades this way but I have also looked into a jig for my larger orders simply to get the job done faster and get the knife off to the customer in a reasonable amount of time. I will never allow the jig to replace my free hand grinding but to only assist me when I need to speed things up a little. But this statement I completely agree with " I don't think a child should get velcro shoe straps before they can tie their own shoes, digital watches before they can tell time, or calculators before they can do basic math." we except maybe the velcro strap thing. My son is 1 1/2 and he has velcro straps so he can put on his own shoes.
 
I personally learned To flat grind using a jig. While it definitely has limitations when it comes to more exotic curvatures or complex grinds, it really helped me learn the basic mechanics of grinding.

My first attempt at a blade was freehand on a 1x30 grinder. This was well before I even knew any other knife makers or that forums like these even existed. I butchered that first one, so I cut off another 8" chunk, and went to grinding again. I kept making the same mistakes because I just didn't understand the mechanics, movements, or even angles for grinding. After that I decided to fabricate a simple jig that would fit on the tool rest of my 1x30. I used that on a few blades, and was amazed at how it improved the outcome. So, I put on my big boy shorts, and tried again freehand... And success. It wasn't a perfect grind, but it was good. The jig mostly taught me how to hold the blade against the grinder and how to move it. Later on, I buy by 2x72 grinder. And holy cow, my grinds go to crud again. I built a new jig, and went to town with it. Made some great blades, and after a few successes I again tossed it aside and went freehand. Getting good grinds since.

I hear a lot of people dog jigs, and say things like "they are a crutch.". I love that analogy, but because it is a crutch. You just have to realize that crutches are just there until you are strong enough to walk without them. Some people may never be able to walk without crutches; but that doesn't mean they should be patronized simply because they can not do something as well as you can.

IMHO
 
good morning,
my tuppence. i have not seen jigs/guides/fixtures for sale except four ones to use with sharpening stone. i have several basic jigs i use to get repeatability. i designed and made them. i think we are wandering into a right brain left brain area. i know what i want my hands to do but sometimes they don't do it the way i want. i can visualize a fixture that would help, make it, modify it and use it. in addition, i am 60, i have early arthritis in my fingers, hands, wrists, elbow, shoulder, ......... so FOR ME using a fixture makes some tasks physically easier.
Is my knife better because i cut the blank out with a file and hacksaw while you had your blank water-jet cut?
on the comments made about computers, i started working on computers in 1972 when you could look and see each bit of memory and you didn't have a power supply but a dedicated DC generator in the basement.
have a blessed day
Scott

"I'm trading my sickness and pain, I'm laying them down for the joys of the Lord."
 
I think using a jig should be fine.I learned to free hand grind so it's more versatile for me.When using a jig it is controlled by hand so there is a great degree of skill needed.I would destroy a blade trying to use a jig.Jig or no jig if you are having fun making knives then to Me it's OK.

Rick
 
I have been making knives for the past couple of years and quietly doing so in a vacumm meaning save for the internet I did not have anyone to teach me anything. I built my grinder, smithy, quench tanks and tools and when it finally came time to grind I knew very little. I purchased a jig from Tracey and used it for a year. It worked very well on the style of knives I am doing but even then it was not easy as there was still a learning curve. Now I no longer use the jig and freehand my blades but educating my hands and body to grind with the jig prepared a platform to build on when I did go free hand.

I am the least of makers here I reckon and no authority on anything knife wise but using the jig did help me and if you are cut by a knife made with a jig will you not still bleed the same as cut by one that was not? I would also add that if a person has not ever used a grinding jig and just their hands to learn they are limited in their understanding of what the jig can teach a beginner without formal instruction.

shane
 
I do have a dog in this race, Bubble Jig and stand by its merits 100%. Just wanted to make that clear.

Sled stye jigs are very restrictive and add little to a makers grinding skills.

People who do production work would be at a serious disadvantage without using jigs.

I spent a life time welding and with the use of numerous jigs my work was passable.

As a life long wood worker I pride myself on the ingenious jigs created for turning out quality furniture. My fellow woodworkers would laugh at me if I went to build a Queen Ann table with a hand held circular saw and a screw driver.

Work smarter not harder has always been a favorite adage of mine. If your building a bridge, work smarter, if your digging a ditch, work smarter, if you are making a knife, work smarter.

I try to always post on these threads, wherever I see them. Not so much to promote a product I market, but to impress on knifemakers to work smarter not harder, whatever direction that takes you.

Happy grinding, Fred
 
My first several knives were made using only handtools.I was a teenager and had lots of energy! lol. I purchased a grinder in the 90's ,I think Koval knives,,dont know if they are still around or not.Going over the order on the phone,I say throw in one of those hollow grinding fixtures too,,he says I wouldnt recommened it! I say,huh!! thinking to myself,this guy is talking his self out of 300.00 ,whats up! hes loosing money! He said its a crutch,learn freehand! I say,,oh just throw it in there! He talked me out of getting the fixture! Im glad he did! I learned freehand,lots of mistakes! but I learned! with time! Today,I use jigs,that I make myself,because of poor eye sight! blind in one eye, and no depth perception. I couldnt grind without them! I tried,and almost gave up,thats when I made my first jig.!!!
 
As a new knife maker with less than 50 knives under my belt I will relate my experiences with a jig. I dived in with enthusiasm and bought a lot of serious equipment, and had hoped to learn to grind freehand. I first tried for a scandi grind, then a full flat when the scandi was botched. Finally I resorted to a convex grind to salvage what would otherwise have been a wasted piece of steel. My second knife was much the same. botched scandi to botched flat to salvaged by a convex.

The third thing I built was a nice wide table for my grinder and a grinding jig. I understand the limitations that this imposes, particularly with extremly upswept tips and inside curves. But without this jig I would have wasted hunreds of dollars worth of steel. I simply cannot afford to waste that steel, particularly when being new and unrecognized, I cannot charge as much for my work. Since building the jig I have not had to discard a single blade due to a botched grind. And I have not yet felt limited by it because I haven't graduated to building designs that it can't produce.

However I do understand that it is limited. I have even designed certain features into knives (like removable bolt on scales) to allow ease of resharpening using a jig.

Is it limiting? Yes, absolutely. But by the same token there are unlimited variations within the jig's capability that I am content to explore for now. If and when I decide I want to make a knife that cannot be produced using my jig, I will find a way to get that done, and if it means wasting a bunch of steel learning to grind freehand then so be it. If I want to do it bad enough I will do what it takes.

But I do take issue with the idea that an electric grinder used without a jig is more "handmade" than one used with a jig. Ultimately both methods use a heck of a lot of technology. And getting precise and even plunge lines with a sloppy, too-fast grinder like my grizzly takes a great deal of care and patience, even with a jig. All the jig does is eliminate rotation along the knife's long axis, and support the blade. All of the other variables are still controlled by hand. As another member mentioned earlier in the thread, contracting out for heat treat is a common practice as well. Someone using a jig to grind can still claim sole authorship where a freehand grinder who subs out the HT cannot. And then there are the gus who "make" knives by handling blades that are already ground and heat treated. I attended a county fair last month and saw a stunning pattern welded knife with an antler handle and asked the maker if he bought his billets or if he forged them himself. When he told me he bought the blades already finished and just added the handles I was a little shocked. What's worse is he told me he used to make them by hand but stopped because this was easier. It seems he had built up a name for himself making knives and then cashed in on the name recognition by selling pre made blade blanks as his own. It is discouraging as an aspiring maker to see someone with an established reputation (at least locally) get away with cutting corners like that. But by the same token I'm sure there are a lot of freehamd grinders who feel like they put in their time and that it isn't fair for knives ground with a jig to be classified the same as knives ground freehand. I think the subtle distinction is a lot less important to the average knife customer than it is to the guys making them. (And so is sole authorship if the guy at the county fair is any indication.)

Ultimately without the jig I would not have been able to make knives I was satisfied with. With it, I have made knives that I am pretty proud of, even if they are rudimentary compared to the incredible works of art you experienced guys produce. I guess what I'm saying is that if a jig makes the difference between making satisfactory knives and not making knives at all, then it is a "cure", not a curse. For makers capable of grinding without one, being forced to use one might be a curse of sorts if it limits their artistic vision. When I made my third knife, using the jig, I was thrilled at how nice it turned out compared to my first two. I had found salvation!
 
Why do you disparage the guy just adding handles to blades? If he is being honest about it and his customers are happy the why does it bother you?
 
Les George said:
Why do you disparage the guy just adding handles to blades? If he is being honest about it and his customers are happy the why does it bother you?
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I apologize for taking so long to get back to you.

To answer you question, I guess it was how the knives were presented. I was under the impression, as was my wife who was with me, that he made the knives entirely himself. If I'm honest, I suppose it's also a bit of jealousy at his success. Here I am wasting time trying to do the "sole authorship" thing whenever I can get some time to make a knife, and this guy is cutting corners and is apparently pretty successful. It made me feel a bit foolish for taking the extra time and trouble to make knives from bar stock, cutting out the profiles, grinding, heat treating, etc. when I could have just ordered a blade and glued a piece of antler on it. Then I could be a knife "maker" and crank out 4 or 5 "handmade" knives in the time it takes me to make one of mine.

I don't mean to disparage him or his customers. And I won't pretend to know what other people are thinking. That said, if any of his customers thought as I did before I asked, they would be buying his knives under the assumption that he made them from raw materials, not pre-made blades. If all of his customers buy his knives knowing full well that he didn't grind or heat treat them, then I don't have an issue with that at all. But if the only way to find out that they aren't made entirely in-house is to ask him, then I think that's a little misleading.

I had a look at your website and your statement there about no secrets and no lies really speaks to this very issue. The guy didn't lie, and he did tell me exactly how his knives are made. I wouldn't have even mentioned him in the first place if he made that fact known up front without having to be asked about it. I know there is a lot of debate on what 'hand made' means. And I know it means different things to different people.

I hope that helps to better explain why I came away with the impression I did. And I apologize for taking such a big step away from the original topic of jig vs. freehand grinding.
 
Don't let what other makers do bring you down, or up for that matter.

If someone bothers you or ya get a little envy (and it happens to us all) don't try to tear them down, try to out grow them! :)
 
Les George said:
Don't let what other makers do bring you down, or up for that matter.

If someone bothers you or ya get a little envy (and it happens to us all) don't try to tear them down, try to out grow them! :)
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Thanks for the words of wisdom! :) You are correct, we should focus on what we do as individuals and strive to be the best we can. I perhaps lost sight of that.
 
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