Grr. I'm working on slipjoints again, having semi-successfully completed 7 or 8. I can't seem to make them work without multiple failed assemblies, etc. I can make three fixed blades in the time I spend on these stupid folders, and then the folders don't sell. I'm working 3x as long to make a $150 knife, rather than making $500 of fixed blades in the same time. Convince me it's worth it.
Why am I messing with this stuff?
- Thread starter jkf96a
- Start date
As Tony Bose has said many times, making slip joints requires a real bad case of the 'want to's'. Like most knifemaking, if you're in it for the money, you'd probably be better off doing something else. Personally, I love working on slip joints, so it isn't about the money for me. I get much more satisfaction from working on something that is a little more challenging and would be something that my grandfather would have carried. If it were easy, everyone would be making them.
By no means am I an accomplished slip joint maker, but I am trying it as well. I think the single biggest mistake that us newbies make is trying to make slip joints from a clean-sheet design. The people who buy and collect slip joints typically embrace the tradition behind them. As such, they prefer traditional patterns versus something drawn up from scratch. My first slip joint was something I drew up entirely on my own and it turned out horribly. Since then, I've been working off of ESTABLISHED traditional patterns with much better success. My inspiration came from Kerry Hampton, apprentice so-to-speak to Tony Bose, who recommended that I spend $17 to buy a Case Sodbuster Jr. at Lowes, pull it apart and use as a pattern. I did just that and my second slip joint turned out pretty decent. I've since gotten some patterns and are now working on those. Unfortunately I'm really, really slow, but am making decent strides in fit and finish on each of them.
Continuing with my recommendation above, you also need to put forth the effort to see some truly old knives. Examine them and learn what distinguishes old Sheffield and early American pocketknives from those produced today. Take note of the fit and finish, swedges and rounding of the handles. It seems to me that most slip joint users and collectors want knives that approximate those of old.
Lastly, work on your nail nicks. Compare yours to those of accomplished makers whose knives sell for $250+. When I first started, I put some money into a 6" grinding stone, had it cut to a 45° with a knife edge. My plan was to grind in my nail nicks after heat treat. I've since found that many collectors/users prefer nail nicks that are cut (i.e. machined) in prior to heat treat. Nicks cut in this fashion are almost always crisper than those ground in after heat treat. I was surprised to learn that many prefer the nick to be discolored from HT rather than a shiny finish as achieved by grinding post HT. For ~$35, you can buy a HSS 1 3/8" 45° dovetail cutter from Enco (assuming you have access to a mill) that will enable you to do this.
If you have any other questions, please do not hesitate to ask. Also, please take all of this as constructive criticism, not as me attempting to bash you or your knives as that certainly is not my intent.
By no means am I an accomplished slip joint maker, but I am trying it as well. I think the single biggest mistake that us newbies make is trying to make slip joints from a clean-sheet design. The people who buy and collect slip joints typically embrace the tradition behind them. As such, they prefer traditional patterns versus something drawn up from scratch. My first slip joint was something I drew up entirely on my own and it turned out horribly. Since then, I've been working off of ESTABLISHED traditional patterns with much better success. My inspiration came from Kerry Hampton, apprentice so-to-speak to Tony Bose, who recommended that I spend $17 to buy a Case Sodbuster Jr. at Lowes, pull it apart and use as a pattern. I did just that and my second slip joint turned out pretty decent. I've since gotten some patterns and are now working on those. Unfortunately I'm really, really slow, but am making decent strides in fit and finish on each of them.
Continuing with my recommendation above, you also need to put forth the effort to see some truly old knives. Examine them and learn what distinguishes old Sheffield and early American pocketknives from those produced today. Take note of the fit and finish, swedges and rounding of the handles. It seems to me that most slip joint users and collectors want knives that approximate those of old.
Lastly, work on your nail nicks. Compare yours to those of accomplished makers whose knives sell for $250+. When I first started, I put some money into a 6" grinding stone, had it cut to a 45° with a knife edge. My plan was to grind in my nail nicks after heat treat. I've since found that many collectors/users prefer nail nicks that are cut (i.e. machined) in prior to heat treat. Nicks cut in this fashion are almost always crisper than those ground in after heat treat. I was surprised to learn that many prefer the nick to be discolored from HT rather than a shiny finish as achieved by grinding post HT. For ~$35, you can buy a HSS 1 3/8" 45° dovetail cutter from Enco (assuming you have access to a mill) that will enable you to do this.
If you have any other questions, please do not hesitate to ask. Also, please take all of this as constructive criticism, not as me attempting to bash you or your knives as that certainly is not my intent.
I can empathize with ya. Made several slipjoints toward the end of last year that turned out OK, but knew they could be much better. So I decided to take the Texas Slipjoint Class taught by Bill Rupple and Rusty Preston in October to see what I could pick up that would help me improve faster. I learned alot and found out that if I really wanted to get into the slipjoints and do them right then I needed to bite the bullet and get the right equipment. My mill was delivered yesterday and I have a horizontal grinder on the way. Can't wait to get back into it and hopefully see some improvement. They are frustrating beasts aren't they!
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Calvin Robinson
Moderator Christian Forum
If your in it for the money you have to speed it up,to speed it up you have to not only get good but have to learn how to fix the problems that crop up. To do this you have to build a lot of knives and make the mistakes and learn how to fix them. Going to a school or getting help from a maker who has already paid his dues will help but it still won't come easy because it is not easy to build slip joints, IT'S HARD! Keep at it if your heart is in it, if not, go do something you love to do.
I went to the Texas Slipjoint School that Bill Ruple and Rusty Preston teach and it helped a lot but I still struggle with slipjoints, I'm getting faster and better but I've got a long way to go to get as good and fast as Bill Ruple.
By the way Bill Ruple can build a two blade Slipjoint that sells for $1100.00 in one day, he did it in front of 10 students in a day and a half.The first thing I did when I got back from the school in Texas was design and build a horizontal grinder similar to what Bill has in his shop, it has saved me much more time building knives than the two weeks it took me to build.I also built a 0 gauge to get the tang close to 0 in all positions and that saves a lot of time also.
I see you are in Texas , there are a lot of good Slipjoint makers in Texas, maybe you can go visit one of them for some instruction. Call me if you want to and I'll help you all I can(8505721504), I can't help much via computer because I type too slow, it took me about 30 min. To type this.
Good luck!
Calvin
Calvin Robinson
Moderator Christian Forum
Yes I do, I'll post some when I can, I'm on my iPad right now and can't post pictures with it, wait till I can use my pc.If I forget, remind me.
I love my iPad, but doing some things are a bit cumbersome without a conventional mouse.
Calvin Robinson
Moderator Christian Forum
Here are a few pictures of my grinder.
Denny Eller
Well-Known Member
Great looking grinder, Calvin. You put a lot of thought into that and it shows.
Frank Niro
KNIFE MAKER
Thanks for the pics . Always good to see your fine folders !!! Frank
Jason,
First I agree with all the above advice.
I have not made or attempted to make slip joints buy I do make liner lock folders. I can empathise with the frustration of the learning curve, it is quite aggravating for example to snap a tap and then figure out how to recover. As for the time involved, for me it is a hobby and I do not keep track of the time. I also feel that even though folders may take longer it feels good when all the parts come together and you've produced a desireable product. It's also alot easier fo carry a folder than a fixed blade. I have been blessed to have a professional knife maker 15 miles away who has helped me greatly and has given me help and advice, so as stated above see if there is a knifemaker near your house that would be willing to spend some time with you. Machinery or equipment can be quite costly,you may be able to find someone who has or has access to a surface grinder that can get some of your parts ground for you. For what it's worth. Good Luck Dan
First I agree with all the above advice.
I have not made or attempted to make slip joints buy I do make liner lock folders. I can empathise with the frustration of the learning curve, it is quite aggravating for example to snap a tap and then figure out how to recover. As for the time involved, for me it is a hobby and I do not keep track of the time. I also feel that even though folders may take longer it feels good when all the parts come together and you've produced a desireable product. It's also alot easier fo carry a folder than a fixed blade. I have been blessed to have a professional knife maker 15 miles away who has helped me greatly and has given me help and advice, so as stated above see if there is a knifemaker near your house that would be willing to spend some time with you. Machinery or equipment can be quite costly,you may be able to find someone who has or has access to a surface grinder that can get some of your parts ground for you. For what it's worth. Good Luck Dan
Alright, out of my funk a little. I'm using limited equipment, with limited experience and no training. I got the two I was working on back together and sort of functional. Still have three on the bench, but I've also got orders for 10 fixed blades. Maybe a bit of focus on the orders with the slippies worked in will help my attitude.
Calvin Robinson
Moderator Christian Forum
I'm glad your feeling better. I believe if it was me I'd be working on orders untill I felt like working on those slip joints again. I wish you were close enough to come to my shop I'd be happy to help you.
OldKingJoel
Member
When I first began pursuing my interest in knife making, it was old slip joints that inspired me and so those had been my focus, just like JC said. However as I got more serious about making it was real obvious that the money was in the fixed blades. For the last few months I've moved from folders and concentrated solely on fixed blades because that's what people want and I wasn't able to sell my slip joints for what I wanted (probably because I wasn't on this forum meeting people right?). I've started to get a name locally (real locally, that is my immediate neighborhood) and my fixed blades are selling pretty well. I have an amazing folder right now, probably my best to date, but I keep hearing that I want too much for it.
After reading this post, I'm going to return to my first love.
My first knife making experience was a slip joint. I was taking a class in a famous knife making town just out side of Florence Italy. The techniques I learned there have been very valuable, but like most of what they do over there, speed wasn't much of an issue and I have a lot more to learn about technique. So here come the questions: What's this horizontal grinder for? How do you guys get your springs to be perfectly flat. I'm a idealist, and I'd like to do as much as I can by hand, even if it means it takes a long time to master the task. So I don't have a mill, or want to get one. I put my nail nicks in with a chisel that I ground to the right shape, just like they do in Italy. What's this 0 gauge? I get my springs to sit flush with a geometry compass and a lot of patience.
After reading this post, I'm going to return to my first love.
My first knife making experience was a slip joint. I was taking a class in a famous knife making town just out side of Florence Italy. The techniques I learned there have been very valuable, but like most of what they do over there, speed wasn't much of an issue and I have a lot more to learn about technique. So here come the questions: What's this horizontal grinder for? How do you guys get your springs to be perfectly flat. I'm a idealist, and I'd like to do as much as I can by hand, even if it means it takes a long time to master the task. So I don't have a mill, or want to get one. I put my nail nicks in with a chisel that I ground to the right shape, just like they do in Italy. What's this 0 gauge? I get my springs to sit flush with a geometry compass and a lot of patience.
OldKingJoel
Member
Here's some pic of my latest creation for your critique. The style is the traditional style of Scarperia, Italy. This town has been famous for sword and knife makers since the middle ages and would make different styles for the different regions in Italy. This style is called a Zuava. The spring is flush in both open and closed positions. There is no half stop, but a smooth continuous curve from open to close. The wood is African Mahogany, the liners are stainless, the spring is 1095, the blade is O1. The bolsters and the main pins are stainless, but the small pins are nickel silver. The blade has a mirror finish, all done by hand with sand paper, except a final buff. The blade does close a little to one side, but it's a REAL LITTLE bit. The handle was sealed with a wood hardener, and then finished with teak oil. The finish took 6 days to complete.
So; anyone out there want to play appraiser for a guy who hasn't sold much. What do you think is a fair price?
So; anyone out there want to play appraiser for a guy who hasn't sold much. What do you think is a fair price?
McClellan Made Blades
Well-Known Member
Hey Calvin,
Would you mind sharing some specs of your horizontal grinder, I mean actual measurments and maybe a parts list? I have wanted one of these for a very long time, the one that Beaumont sells is awesome and way out of my budget. So building one is my only option. It would be so nice if someone could do up a set of plans like Tracy did for his NWG. But I would settle for some pics and some measurements, if you would please, I'd appreciate it a lot!!! Thanks Bud, Rex
Calvin Robinson
Moderator Christian Forum
I will post some more pictures and specs as soon as I can. I just got back from 8 days of deer hunting and as you can imagine I've got some catching up to do and a show in March to get ready for. Be patient with me and remind me about this if you need to and I'll get around to it sometime.