W-2, heat treating...what did I do wrong?

McClellan Made Blades

McClellan Made Blades

Well-Known Member
Hey Dawgs,
I got ahold of some W-2 that I could work with, I forged it down to a manageble size and then forged it into a blade, went through my normal procedures, I ground the bevels in after forging it to shape, normalized it 3x's, then did the HT that Don Hanson recommends, 1450 to 1500, not going over 1500, held it there for 15 minutes, then quenched in oil (MCMaster Carr Fast Quench Oil), before I quenched it I checked it for warping, there was none then, then after quenching I checked it again, still none, then put it on my bench for some quick sanding, the first side was fine no noticeable warping, once I turned it over and clamped it down the other side showed a fair bend and a little twist in the blade. Here is the really interesting part, as I'm doing this I'm showing a fella that came over to see me work, I was showing how to test the blade with a file for hardness, one side the file skated off it like it should if it's properly hardened, the other side at the end of the blade it actually bit into the steel and cut it! Took a little bit of steel off the end. So here's the question, what did I do wrong???? This is my first time working with W-2, I've worked with 1095 and 1084. I've never had this happen before, never had one warp on me either, the only thing I can think went wrong is after sanding my flats, my blade was pretty thin, I was making it to be a cutter, more of an all around type of blade. Not for big stuff, main cutting boxes, string, etc. Could it be the blade was too thin? As far as the hardening part, I'm lost! I have no idea how one side could harden and the other not, HELP!!! Thanks Dawgs, looking forward to any and all responses. REX
 
What did you use to heat the blade? Are you sure of your temps? How long did you leave it in the oil after quench? How hot was it when you laid it on your bench?

My first thought related to the lack of hardness is that while checking for straightness prior to quenching, your thin tip or edge cooled enough as to miss getting hardened. I go straight from oven to quench with no pause whatsoever. Smooth is fast. The other option is that you overheated the thinner portions, but that depends on your heating methods.

I doubt it's the problem, but I'd also suggest cooling all the way down to just above room temperature before setting the blade down on anything that could act as a heat sink.

Another suggestion, esepcially with any fast quenching steels, is to temper immediately after quench to oil temp. At most I just wipe mine down with a wire brush and towel. I'd be curious to see if there is any micro cracks in the edge of the blade.

I'm curious on this one as well and look forward to some more information.

--nathan
 
silver_pilate said:
My first thought related to the lack of hardness is that while checking for straightness prior to quenching, your thin tip or edge cooled enough as to miss getting hardened. I go straight from oven to quench with no pause whatsoever. Smooth is fast. The other option is that you overheated the thinner portions, but that depends on your heating methods.



--nathan
Click to expand...

That was my fist thought too.
 
silver_pilate said:
What did you use to heat the blade? Are you sure of your temps? How long did you leave it in the oil after quench? How hot was it when you laid it on your bench?

My first thought related to the lack of hardness is that while checking for straightness prior to quenching, your thin tip or edge cooled enough as to miss getting hardened. I go straight from oven to quench with no pause whatsoever. Smooth is fast. The other option is that you overheated the thinner portions, but that depends on your heating methods.

I doubt it's the problem, but I'd also suggest cooling all the way down to just above room temperature before setting the blade down on anything that could act as a heat sink.

Another suggestion, esepcially with any fast quenching steels, is to temper immediately after quench to oil temp. At most I just wipe mine down with a wire brush and towel. I'd be curious to see if there is any micro cracks in the edge of the blade.

I'm curious on this one as well and look forward to some more information.

--nathan
Click to expand...

Nathan,
Thanks for the input and here is the answers to your questions.
I normalized it in my kiln 3x's, then I heat treated it in my Smart Kiln HTing oven, when I quenched it I submerged it completely, and kept it moving tip to butt for a slow 60 count. Once I took it out it was cool enough to handle with paper towels, thats when I put it on the bench.


My first thought related to the lack of hardness is that while checking for straightness prior to quenching, your thin tip or edge cooled enough as to miss getting hardened. I go straight from oven to quench with no pause whatsoever. Smooth is fast. The other option is that you overheated the thinner portions, but that depends on your heating methods.

I may have misstated that, I did do it that way. I didn't check for straightness until I pulled it out of the quench

No heat sink there, the bench I put it on was wooden.


Another suggestion, esepcially with any fast quenching steels, is to temper immediately after quench to oil temp. At most I just wipe mine down with a wire brush and towel. I'd be curious to see if there is any micro cracks in the edge of the blade.

I didn't heat my oil , with 1084 and 1095 I usually don't then either, but have recently started when I'm trying to get that wicked hamon line! I'm going to go reheat treat it, starting with a normalizing sequence, I'm going to heat the oil this time, and do an edge quench. Instead of clay, my hamons rarely follow the clay any way, and as long as I have a it differentially heat treated, I'm good with that...PROVIDED I get full hardness, NOT what I got on my first try.
I'll be back later and let you know the results,THANK YOU NATHAN, for helping me work through this, any ideas how one side could harden and the other side not? That was the weirdest screwup I've ever done! Rex
 
Yeah, I'm at a loss to that one as well... So this blade was clayed? Were both sides clayed symmetrically? I wonder if too much heat bled down to the edge preventing a full hardening.

As to the oil temp, as long as you're at room temp (at least with Parks#50 that I'm used to), you should be fine. If you want to heat the oil, it will help decrease the viscosity and maybe give you a faster quench, so heat it up to around 115F-130F or so.

You may be able to get a good hamon with no clay AND a full quench. The spine is often thick enough to hold the heat and prevent a through hardening while the edge will harden, forming a hamon in between. You can get some crazy random stuff from what I've seen without using clay and without resorting to an edge quench.

I'd still do my temper cycles before any sanding...not sure if I'm clear that you're doing that or not.

Good luck, and please let us know how the second round goes. I'm still figuring out W2 and hamons myself. I've had luck producing them, but they are lower on the blade than I'd like. Too thick of clay, and too far down on the blade for me.

--nathan
 
W2 is for Water quench. It likes a fast quench and has a short TTT nose (from what I recall). You have to quench it quickly and in oil that cools it fast.
 
How fast did you get it from the kiln to your quenchant? You've got about a second to get it there and you have to be careful when using the kiln because cold tongs will suck the heat out of the blade.
 
Also, if your clay was too thick it can hold enough heat push the soft portion of the blade down to the edge. Kind of like your hamon ran over the edge.
 
silver_pilate said:
Yeah, I'm at a loss to that one as well... So this blade was clayed? Were both sides clayed symmetrically? I wonder if too much heat bled down to the edge preventing a full hardening.

As to the oil temp, as long as you're at room temp (at least with Parks#50 that I'm used to), you should be fine. If you want to heat the oil, it will help decrease the viscosity and maybe give you a faster quench, so heat it up to around 115F-130F or so.

You may be able to get a good hamon with no clay AND a full quench. The spine is often thick enough to hold the heat and prevent a through hardening while the edge will harden, forming a hamon in between. You can get some crazy random stuff from what I've seen without using clay and without resorting to an edge quench.

I'd still do my temper cycles before any sanding...not sure if I'm clear that you're doing that or not.

Good luck, and please let us know how the second round goes. I'm still figuring out W2 and hamons myself. I've had luck producing them, but they are lower on the blade than I'd like. Too thick of clay, and too far down on the blade for me.

--nathan
Click to expand...

Natedog,
It is done, I did it the way I mentioned before, I did an edge quench at 1475, with a little soak time, I heated my oil to about 135, gave it a good interupted quench, a slow 20 count in and and another 20 count out, then all the way in, checked it before I put in the oven for temper, and it's hard hard hard!!!!! Don't know about a hamon yet, that was at 12:30 last night when I finaly got done, tonight I'll spend some time taking a peek and see if there will be any kind of hamon, with 1084 an edge quenching works great, personally I've never had great results with clay. The biggest problem with this knife is it is so small. It will be my pocket knife, for the carpenter jeans I prefer to wear. I'll be posting pics either tonight (if I get really excited about it) or tomorrow if it takes more work than I have time for tonight. Thanks everyone for all the replies, I have a fair amount of W-2 and want to try to get some wicked hamons if it's possible. One of my biggest problems is this is 1/2" round stock, I bought all Aldo had at Batsons. What is the best way to forge this out wider without making it hair thin? I've thought about doubling it up and forging it down, also thought about cutting it and welding it together, then forging it down, this isn't my normal way of working, I usually use Aldo's 1 1/2" 1084, flat stock. I'm kinda wishing I would have went ahead and bought some of the monster stuff Don Hanson had, I couldn't forge it down but I could have cut it into usable strips as thick as I wanted! On brighter note, my "Forged Fighter" that I've been working on is turning out incredibly well. I've never put bolsters on a blade and this one looks like it deserves some added "BLING", plus I have a balance issue with this one I've never had before, I prefe mine to balance at or just behind the guard, this one is a full inch behind the guard, so I'll probably have to do some weight reduction in the tang, it's a full tang, so there's plenty of room. The bolsters might change that a little but I don't expect it to change it a lot. The hamon on that one is gorgeous!!!! I'll keep yall posted.

As most all of you have seen my progression, I'm coming up on my first year anniversary of making knives, and I still have number 1, some wise individual told me not to let it get away form me and I listened, so I'll be taking it out and comparing it to my newest work, I might even post some pics yall are interested, it's amazing how far I've come in such a short period. I have to thank my mentor Charklie Edmondson, and all the Dawgs on here, for my progress. It was a combined effort in getting me to where I am today, so THANK YOU ALL!!! Come on over to the house sometimes and we'll put some steaks on the grill! Errrrr....not all at once though....God I'm crazy!!! Rex
 
BossDog said:
W2 is for Water quench. It likes a fast quench and has a short TTT nose (from what I recall). You have to quench it quickly and in oil that cools it fast.
Click to expand...

Boss,
Can you explain what a "short TTT nose" means? From what I've read from Kevin Cashen heat the oil increases viscosity, which makes it looser, which should make it cool quicker, I wonder what woul dhappen if you cooled your oil??? Not a lot, just a little, not sure how that could be done, maybe sitting th etank on a block of dry ice? Or so a frozen ice pack? That might be a great experiment for those that like to experiment. we'll see howit turned out tonight, hamon or not, it is hard! Thanks Boss!
 
burchtree said:
How fast did you get it from the kiln to your quenchant? You've got about a second to get it there and you have to be careful when using the kiln because cold tongs will suck the heat out of the blade.
Click to expand...

Straight from the kiln to the oil, no hesitation, and I put the blade in edge up, with the tang facing the end where I pick it up from, so I basically get a handle of it, and roll it over into the quench, in one smooth motion. Thanks for the input, Rex
 
mrnewberry said:
Also, if your clay was too thick it can hold enough heat push the soft portion of the blade down to the edge. Kind of like your hamon ran over the edge.
Click to expand...

I mixed it very thin, and painted it on with an acid brush, both sides were pretty equal, as I always "try" to make both sides match. Thanks Rex
 
Heating an oil will LOWER its viscosity, as you said, making it more loose. I believe this helps in the dissipation of the vapor jacket and allows a faster coolling. Chilling your oil will just make it less effective as the viscosity (resistance to movement) increases. This means the oil cannot quickly move through or around bubbles that form. That is also why agitation is a good idea (to disrupt the vapor jacket).

--nathan
 
silver_pilate said:
Heating an oil will LOWER its viscosity, as you said, making it more loose. I believe this helps in the dissipation of the vapor jacket and allows a faster coolling. Chilling your oil will just make it less effective as the viscosity (resistance to movement) increases. This means the oil cannot quickly move through or around bubbles that form. That is also why agitation is a good idea (to disrupt the vapor jacket).

--nathan
Click to expand...

DUH! Nathan I knew that that's the whole purpose for heating it in the first place! I don't know what I was thinking. Please excuse te brain fart!
I want to find a a better or should I say faster quench than what I currently have. Which is the McMaster Carr Fast Quench Oil, it does work good, but I think it could be faster, which is why I felt like it needed to be heated.

An update on the W-2 blade I've been working on, last night, I noticed a boo-boo spot at the plunge, so (after all I've done) the only way to fix it was to go back to the grinder, after that I spent the rest of last night handsanding it again (yes, really by hand), to get the finish back to where I had it, I don't know if the hamon will survive that much grinding, I've heard many different versions, some have said that grinding can "wash" the hamon lines away, some have said they lightly grind theirs, I'll see tonight, it's almost ready for the etch. This one is very, very thin, if it makes it to a finished knife, and the hardening is correct, it will be one sharp booger! I'll let yall know tonight, Rex
 
burchtree said:
How fast did you get it from the kiln to your quenchant? You've got about a second to get it there and you have to be careful when using the kiln because cold tongs will suck the heat out of the blade.
Click to expand...

The one second thing you have read about, is not about getting the blade into the quench. It only relates to the cooling speed of the quench. To reach full hard in some steels, such as 1095, requires cooling from 1475°/1500° to under 900° in .8 of one second after in the quench. You don't want to waste time getting the blade into the quench, but there is no need to try and get there in one second, and as long as you grip the blade by the tang with your tongs, you will not lose any appreciable amount of heat in the blade itself. One more tidbit. When you see "water quench", they mean brine. Brine is faster and a more even cooling quench than is plain water, and much less harsh.
 
Rex, you should be good on the hamon if there is one there. It will be a feature pretty much all the way through the steel. I grind my W2 blades after heat treating. You are right that you will cause your hamon to disappear when grinding, but once you get back to 400 grit on the grinder, you'll see ghost of it, and then as you hand sand, you'll be able to see it in certain lights if it's there. I sand up to 1500 grit or so and then etch in dilute Ferric Chrolide for bouts of 10-20 seconds until I get it where I like it. After etching (and between etches), I soak a paper towel with WD40 and then work in red rouge (iron oxide). I wrap this around a sanding block with the rouge facing outward, and use it to polish the blade. It will remove the oxides and leave you with a nice shiney grey color and bring out the subtle activity of the hamon.

Buffing is a no-no when tyring to get a hamon as you will "smear" the metal surface and loose the hamon. Hand sanding is the best way to bring out a hamon.

--nathan
 
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LRB said:
The one second thing you have read about, is not about getting the blade into the quench. It only relates to the cooling speed of the quench. To reach full hard in some steels, such as 1095, requires cooling from 1475°/1500° to under 900° in .8 of one second after in the quench. You don't want to waste time getting the blade into the quench, but there is no need to try and get there in one second, and as long as you grip the blade by the tang with your tongs, you will not lose any appreciable amount of heat in the blade itself. One more tidbit. When you see "water quench", they mean brine. Brine is faster and a more even cooling quench than is plain water, and much less harsh.
Click to expand...

LRB,
Have you ever quenched in brine? Did you heat the brine? How much salt did you mix in how much water? My first quench I didn't have any oil, and tried the brine quench, I know the blade was thin on this one, and it shattered! From all the info I've gathered over the years everyone has said not to quench in water. There is fast (enough) oil out there available. I think if you have a really thick blade, say around 3/8th's (maybe a 1/4"), it might survive. But why got through all that work and then take the chance of cracking the blade? If it worked, especially in the case of a hamon, the results could be fantastic...BUT, a hamon to me is eye candy, the differential heat treat is still there, the proper hardness is still there, so why risk it? I'm slow enough as it is, spending what time I have working on a blade just to bust it doesn't appeal to me. I do believe I'm going to finish building my (bigger) quench tank and getting a faster oil before I forge anymore of this W-2, what I have is 1/2" round, it doesn't get very wide, and the wider I forge it the thinner it gets. I'm so wishing I bought some of the HUGE W-2 from Don Hanson, I wouldn't be able to forge it down from round, but I could have cut it into good sized slices, then forged it anyway I wanted to. I hope he gets some more....another wish for my list! Thanks for the suggestion, but I've tried it, if I remember correctly I used about a half a bag to about a gallon and a half of water, dissolved it all. But I didn't heat it, I think that may have made the shock a little less, plus having the blade much thicker could have made the results different. Rex
 
A little heat helps. I have never quenched a blade in brine. Only flint strikers. In plain water I was getting longitudinal cracks. Running with the grain. With brine, I got no cracks. I would use brine on a blade only as a last resort, unless it was left fairly thick. I heated my brine at around 120°. The recommended ratio is a 8% to 9% solution. If I remember correctly 13 oz per gallon. Sea salt, Kosher, or rock.
 
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