San mai help!!!

Hi everyone, Had a few q's about san mai and pattern welding? I have been a blacksmith for 9 years and messed around with knives for even longer! I need to pass a jurying into a local organization and have seen some beautifull san mai from Mr. Ed Caffrey and others as well as regular pattern welding (forgive the term "regular") and love it. I want to learn. I have forge welded several times succesfully, simple peice to peice, low carbon to low carbon and once forge welded an iron core sandwiched inside a high carbon sheath to make a folder blade that I have not finished yet! So here are the Q's: 1.Difficulty of Pattern welding for one who knows the basics like me?
2.San mai process?
3. Etchant that is easy to buy without a background check? And soak time?
4. Heat treatmeant of 416ss and 1084 san mai and pattern welded 15n20 and 1084?
Thanks guys, I love this web site, most people where I am from don't like to share knowledge, it's infuriating!
 
1. You should be good if you've done a bit of fire-welding. Remember, keep everything clean of scale and rust, and flux well.
2. I suggest using known steels. 1018 is preferable to mystery mild steel. Wrought iron is good stuff too. I'd suggest keeping it simple and getting a bit experience under your belt before trying 416ss... Remove all the mill scale from the steel, and all rust. Tack weld the pieces together to temperarally hold it together while you heat it up. Heat the billet up to a dull red, then flux and bring it up to welding heat. I like to give it a few minutes soak at welding heat. When you think it is ready, bring it to the anvil and starting at the handle end, gently tap it together by running a series of hammer blows down the length of the billet... keep at it until it cools down below welding heat. Reflux, and repeat until you are satisified it has welded. Draw it out and forge it at or near welding heat, then thermal cycle it a few times to reduce the grain size.
3. ferric chloride is a great etchant, and is sold at radio shack as 'archer etchant' or circuitboard etchant. I mix 1 part fc to 3 parts water, and etch multiple times until I'm happy with it, cleaning the oxides after each etch. I like a deep etch that will not rub away with use.
4. both those combinations can be heat-treated the same as plain 1084.

Hope that helped. Have fun with it!
 
P.S.
If you are welding by hand and not with a power hammer or press, keep your starting billet down to a reasonable size, say 6"x1"x3/4"... this should give you plenty for a blade, maybe enough for a medium bowie.
 
1.Difficulty of Pattern welding for one who knows the basics like me?

Pattern welding isn't all that difficult....it's all about the alloys your trying to join, the correct heat range, AND a proper soak time. The alloys you choose will play the biggest part in success or failure. The alloy need to have similar expansion/contraction coefficients....meaning that when heated or cooled, they need to expand or contract at similar rates. This is the reason that 1080 or 1084 and 15N20 are so popular...they are nearly identical with the exception of the 15N20 having a 1.5% nickel content. I generally run my forge at 2350F before I ever put the billet in. Then experience and intuition take over.....you have to remember that when the outside layers of an initial weld look like they are at the proper temp, the interior layers are still "cold"...that is where the soak comes in. Once you make the initial weld, all of the tiny air spaces are eliminated, and the billet begins to exhibit the behavior of a single, solid piece of steel as it applies to heating/cooling.

2.San mai process?

This is basically adding additonal steps to the process. Again, as long as the alloy are closely compatible, it's not all that difficult. For example, if you want a "core" of random pattern damascus, with exteriors of 1080, you simply build a billet of random, take it down to whatever you wise the core thickness to be, then overlay a piece of 1080 on each side, and forge weld the entire billet. Obviously there are a lot of little nuances to it, but that is the general idea.

If you're thinking of doing San-Mai with 416 stainless, that's a whole different ballgame. Because 416 is so different it requires very specific temps and soak times to make it work. The only way I have been successful with 416 laminated to the exterior of billets is to "dry weld" it. All the mating surface must be clean, flat, and kept oxygen free during the process. It took me 6-8 months of experimenting to figure it out. The way I do it is to forge all the parts to the sizes/thickness I want, then surface grind all the mating faces to 120 grit, clean with acetone, then "sandwich" everything together and MIG weld the entire outside edges....this essentially makes the exterior 416 the "can" portion, as if I were doing a "can" weld with powdered steels. The billet goes into the forge at 2350F, and once it appears to reach that temp, I let it soak for 7-9 mins. Then it goes into the press for a single weld. I then grind all of the MIG off, and continue to forge to shape. This combo has a very narrow forging range....which means you have about a 200-300 degree temp range where you can forge it....otherwise it will often come apart. There are a whole host of other issues that arise from mating these two materials.....annealing is a bear. The only way I can anneal this material is to put it in the heat treat oven at 1350F, for a 1 hour soak, then let it cool down in the oven, overnight. There are also unique things that go on with carbon migration, which will effect how the finished blade is hardened/tempered. Lots of hurdles to overcome, and lots of experimenting required if you're gona go with 416 in a San-Mai.

3. Etchant that is easy to buy without a background check? And soak time?

PCB Archer Etchant from Radio Shack. Otherwise known as Ferric Chloride. Dilute it 3 to 1 with DISTILLED water. Blades MUST be finely finished (I go to 600 by hand) and ABSOLUTELY CLEAN prior to etching. (Never buff a blade that is to be etched....if you do, the pattern comes out looking "smeared") I put on latex gloves, clean the blade with acetone, then clean it again with windex. Soak time in the etch depends on many things....temp of etch, dilution of etch, your desired result, etc. I usually like to have my damascus etched to where I can feel the topography with my finger tip. Most of the time that requires 30 minutes or more.

4. Heat treatmeant of 416ss and 1084 san mai and pattern welded 15n20 and 1084?

I won't even get into heat treating 416ss/1084 San-Mai.....there are just way too many variables throughout the entire process to even give you a "close" answer. Like I said before, it took me 6-8 month of experimenting to figure it out, and it changes from billet to billet, depending on how good or bad my technique is for a given billet.

1084/15N20 is easy.....since the steels are nearly identical. 1550F, then quench, temper 3X for 2 hours each time at 400-425F, allowing the blades to cool to room temp between tempering cycles.
 
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Great info Ed, Ive never tried the 416 over 10xx. Ive read a couple of others having a hard time with it as well.
Yes this is a great site, where weekend warriors like me can come and get answers from the "pros". :)

BTW, I have your damascus videos they are great. When is the folder video coming? ;)
 
Thanks Ed, I feel foolish asking, but, what do you use for flux on 15n20/1084! I have used nothing but borax! I have also heard that if you convert the borax to glass state and then crush it back into powder it works better, any thoughts?
 
I use anhydrous borax (borax with all the moisture removed).....most major pottery suppliers carry it. I buy a 100lb bag about once every two years... the last couple of bags have come from Seattle Pottery Supply. In my opinion it is MUCH better than the standard 20 mule team borax. Years ago I tried taking standard borax and making my own anhydrous (as you described)...but it's messy, a real pain in the rear, and the results do not work as good as standard borax.

Generally, when using standard borax, you have to use a lot of it, simply because when it hits the hot steel, the moisture boils off, and most of it ends up on the shop floor. Then you put more on, and it does the same thing. Eventually you can get enough on for it to do it's job, but there is a lot of waste. Anhydrous doesn't contain moisture, so it doesn't bubble up/boil off....so it takes a lot less of it. When melted on the steel, anhydrous is much thicker....sorta like honey.
There is also a "medical grade" of anhydrous borax.....it's the same thing, except that it's ground super fine (like baby powder). I keep it around for when I have a cold shut or a delam.....about 95% of the time I can fix any problems with it.
 
I thank you much for your help! I have seen much of your work and can't imagine the hours you put into those blades (which are outstanding)and I also see how much time you spend on this forum and your own! I thank you for taking time to help me out! I hope to shake your hand someday!
 
Thank you for the great info Ed. I'm a long way from trying this, but it's good to have a great refrence for when the day comes.
 
this is exactly what i came to look for when i got on this site today! i told myself "i want to learn how to do san mai blades" and the first thread that pops up is exactly what i was looking for! i never even thought of the problems thermal expansion and contraction could cause! wow, as if i didn't have enough projects i want to do :p
 
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