Roman knot file work?

The first time I saw this type of filework I was amazed,it was on a knife that Rusty Preston had made.
After Rusty and I had become friends I asked him how to do it,he told me that he had been asked to keep it a secret by the man who taught him how to do it. I respect him for that and consider him a gentleman for keeping his word.
I personally know Ian VanReenen,the maker of the knife pictured in this thread. When I first saw that he was doing the Roman a Knot filework I assumed that the same man that taught Rusty to do it taught Ian. I didn't ask Ian how to do it nor will I,knowing that it is supposed to be kept a secret. My respect for both of these men has been increased,since they have demonstrated their honesty and integrity in this way.
I must say,I am disappointed in those here that denigrate these men for not sharing what they agreed to keep secret.
It's filework! If you have the ability to do it you can figure it out,quit complaining and get to work on it!
 
DeMo said:
I have your answer, but not the cure.

I knew I had seen a how-to on Roman Knot. My OCD kicked in and I scoured the internet looking for the tutorial. Sorry, I could not find what I was looking for, at first.

I may have found something a little better . . . I found this little snippet.

I do not get BLADE magazine. But, I'm sure someone on here can help you with that issue. (Pun intended!) There I said it.

June 2011 BLADE®
How To Make Knives
• How To Do Roman Knot File Work

Good luck in your search.

DeMo
Click to expand...

I found an online repository of Blade Magazine but no June 2011. There are 144 issues here though.

https://archive.org/search.php?query=collection:blade_magazine&sort=-publicdate&page=3

Also, here is a place to order a digital download of that back issue, although no where in the descriptions does it mention the file work tutorial.

http://www.shopblade.com/blade-june-2011-download
 
Last edited:
Calvin Robinson said:
The first time I saw this type of filework I was amazed,it was on a knife that Rusty Preston had made.
After Rusty and I had become friends I asked him how to do it,he told me that he had been asked to keep it a secret by the man who taught him how to do it. I respect him for that and consider him a gentleman for keeping his word.
I personally know Ian VanReenen,the maker of the knife pictured in this thread. When I first saw that he was doing the Roman a Knot filework I assumed that the same man that taught Rusty to do it taught Ian. I didn't ask Ian how to do it nor will I,knowing that it is supposed to be kept a secret. My respect for both of these men has been increased,since they have demonstrated their honesty and integrity in this way.
I must say,I am disappointed in those here that denigrate these men for not sharing what they agreed to keep secret.
It's filework! If you have the ability to do it you can figure it out,quit complaining and get to work on it!
Click to expand...

At the same time its only file work, not a proprietary steel formula.
I didnt mean to start a bashing session but I was surprised because this is the first time a knifemaker hasn't bent over backwards to help another maker(at least in my experience).

I have been fiddling with it and I think I am on the right track. I'll update when I have more of an idea.
 
Akay - Sorry - page 5/6 not page 3.

If anyone finds this article, I sure would like to see it. Inquiring minds want to know.

DeMo

Calvin Robinson

If you took any of my comments as being a negative to either of the mentioned makers, I apologize. It was not my intent to bash either of them for keeping a secret. I do not think I said anything negative but I do not know how you took my comments.

DeMo
 
I think the fellows should honor their commitment to secrecy. However, If someone swore me to secrecy on a technique I would probably decline to learn.


That is a fairly simple procedure. A bit of trial and error will most likely get 'er done. As with most things metal related the technique/method is less critical than the skill of the artisan applying said technique.....

Look at the vanreenen pic and the preston pic. they vary quite a bit. Both are nice. Same technique different artists.
 
DeMo said:
Akay - Sorry - page 5/6 not page 3.

If anyone finds this article, I sure would like to see it. Inquiring minds want to know.

DeMo

Calvin Robinson

If you took any of my comments as being a negative to either of the mentioned makers, I apologize. It was not my intent to bash either of them for keeping a secret. I do not think I said anything negative but I do not know how you took my comments.

DeMo
Click to expand...


DeMo,
I did not take any of your comments as negative towards anyone.
 
I started to post this earlier today and instead of hitting post I deleted. So now I have had a little time to think about what I wanted to say on this subject. I am going to respectfully disagree with those who think there is nothing wrong with passing on information on "how to"! One reason I deleted is the length of this, the other is that it veers away from the question. So bear with me and let me try to explain.

I will be the first too admit there are sometimes trade secrets but, if I know how to do something and you ask I am going to tell you to the best of my ability how to do it. I am still a newbie at the knife making.
However I did construction since the age of 14 right up till about a year after I got by back messed up in a car wreck, and part time after that! So all in all I have about 32+ years in all facets of construction. As a carpenter I am a fourth generation carpenter.
There are things I know about furniture making and trim work that are a dying art. There are things I watched my father do as a youngin and I never asked about, just accepted face value that he was good at it. He imparted a lot of knowledge to me but there are a few things now I wish I had asked about as his techniques on furniture stain was something he had trained himself to do. There is a finish he did I never saw all the steps, just the result. He is gone now and try as I might I have never been able to duplicate that particular finish over the years!

So I guess what I am trying to say is this. If you know how to do something about a knife and you never share that secret it will die with you most likely. To me that is such a shame! Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery!

Now as a maker if you tell me it is a trade secret I will respect your right to keep it that way. That doesn't mean I always agree with you on the subject.

Back to the question of how to do the Roman knot filework. I think the suggestion to get a piece of mild steel and practice duplicating what you see! I think the holes may have been done with a round headed burr, however there are many ways to attempt it but I will say this much. In the pic at the top of this thread the layout and filework in the pic is pretty much flawless, so much so, it looks as if it were machine cut! So however he accomplishes the Roman Knot the maker Ian van Reenen has indeed mastered it! It is beautiful work!!!

That is another testimonial to you can pass on the knowledge of how to do something but the quality comes in many hours or repetitious practice, not just knowing how to do something!

OK so I said my piece and offered a suggestion of two, on "how to", if I offended anyone with my opinion then just remember opinions are like ____________ and we all got one! Humor intended!
 
Last edited:
I can't agree enough, C. I started on and deleted my own giant manifesto, but you've got it nailed and adding my own personal take to it isn't necessary.
 
And I am honest enough to say that they can keep all the "secrets" they want but I don't have to agree with that attitude or approach. I see several makers who are deep into selling their knives and abilities. I think that some honestly but mistakenly believe that they must get their "dime" whenever possible. I also see many makers who are deep into their knives and abilities who when asked any question they have knowledge of reply with a complete answer. It isn't odd that the same ones are always the same ones with the "secrets" unless they are selling something, of course. Frank
 
I have to say I know Ian personally and have been to his shop several times. He has always been very welcoming to me and has been eager to teach me several of his techniques. I have never asked him about the Roman knot file work method and if he has been sworn to secrecy then I admire him for sticking to his promise. I'm sure a lot of makers at that level have a few tricks they keep up their sleeves!
 
I suppose if a guy is trying to make a living at making knives he has to view others as either competition or a support group. On one hand if enough guys get good enough at a trade they create enough force to build an industry. How many knife shows would you go to if there were only the same three custom knifemakers at every show you went to? So sharing ideas increase synergy and fuel the industry as a whole.

On the other hand if you spend many many hours of trial and error to perfect a technique and then hand it off with no compensation you could be losing something that is unique to your abilities/imagination. Do that too many times and your outta time with nothing to show for it....

Where it seems hazy to me is when secrets are being doled out sparingly without the freedom to share. The Roman Knot looks be much a skill thing and less a method thing. So knowing how to do it and being able to do it could be miles apart.

Ultimately anyone can share any trade "secret" they develop with as few or as many folks as they wish. Knowledge is a form of trading stock. If you feel you have nothing to learn from others you may be less inclined to share what you know. If you want to pool your experience and get a lot of feed back and maybe fresh ideas you'll have to be less secretive. I suppose personality and skill level has a lot to do here.

I guess hitting the balance between preserving an industry and protecting your business can be a fine line.....

I know for me personally if I got sworn to secrecy on a method I would probably decline to learn. Secrets can weigh heavy on a person. And if someone figures something out by staring at your work long enough will the original master think you spilled the beans....? No thanks.....:3:
 
Last edited:
The nature of secrets is a funny thing; once a person shares with another its no longer a secret. I'm all for respecting the wishes of another maker but like someone else on this thread said before, if someone asked that I swear to secrecy I'd have to respectfully decline learning their technique. Heck its not like one can keep a secret for long and sell one's wares.
 
This thread was taking a wrong turn but righted itself. Thanks for that.

i have talked to to Ian on the phone several times and know he is a genuine nice guy. He is simply honoring a promise he gave to someone else about keeping the technique a secret. I respect that.

as for keeping a technique a secret, that happens. Ask someone about their best fishing hole some time.

Knife and sword making goes back thousands of years of as closely guarded guild secrets where superior knowledge in forging meant life and death. Only recently has the knife making culture "opened up" and we can thank Ron Lovlass (and countless others) for helping others by sharing. Sword making knowledge is still considered by many to be knowledge that has to be earned over a lifetime of experimentation and never openly shared.

If the secret thing bugs you, the most effective thing to do is to experiment and document and publish a process on the web. The least effective thing to do is to criticize someone that isn't interested in sharing a hard earned bit of knowledge.

The future success of knifemaking and interest in custom knives (ie buying, selling, trading, collecting) depends on educating as many people as possible in any and all aspects of the process.
 
I'm a Knot-Head.....

Okay, this took half an hour. I laid out a line down the center with a pair of calipers. Then I scribed cross marks every 1/4 inch. Then I used a 1/8 ball endmill in a drill press with a blocked clamped down to locate against. I c clamped to the block for safety and went in about .080. You want to go deeper than the radius. I just lined up my cross marks by eye. Then I layed out my angle lines (45 degrees) with a small protractor and a scribe. I took an old hacksaw blade an sanded the sides on the belt sander to remove some of the kerf. Then I sawed up to the tangent of the dia.

As suspected this is more a skill thing than method. With some simple guides to control angles it would come out very neat. I did this with my most basic equipment so that any one with basic tools (belt sander and drill press) wouldn't be afraid to try it. After sawing I took an old file and belt sanded the side smooth so it only cuts in one direction (yes I know I can buy them this way but these harbor freight files never complain when I customize 'em)

When I get more time maybe I'll fiddle with a couple simple guides to do one that is not so scary looking....





IMG_1760.jpgIMG_1761.jpgIMG_1762.jpg
 
That is awesome. What width is the steel? thanks for the tip on the hack saw blade. That line is what was causing me grief.
 
The steel is 1/4" thick. I also scribed a line 1/8 along each side so when the saw blade is hitting the tangent of the hole you should also be hitting the line on the side which means you're at about a 45 degree tilt. If you don't maintain the "tilt" you could hit the backside of the hole edge and leave a mark. also be careful not to rock the blade while sawing.

The grinding the kerf off makes it track a little better and not so "grabby". It will also leave a bigger burr but it sands off easy. It's a pretty crude example but I think anyone being careful and doing a little practice could master that.

I used a carbide 2 flute ball endmill and put just a little bit of lock on the quill so it didn't try to bounce. I ran it at at 1000 rpm with a little cutting oil. This was 4130 steel. if using a decent knife steel I'd probably slow it a bit more. Don't force it to cut. Light but firm with a good amount of cutting oil.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top