Lets talk the Business of Knifemaking.

when you look at the market for a no frills 4" skinner, there are many choices out there, some hand made, some from small companies, some from big companies. you have to find a niche where your product can sell.
we should all be re-evaluating our process continually, that is the only way to improve. steel is not getting any cheaper. so reducing your labor costs is about the only way i can see. again, whole purpose of thread is to identify costs and if possible reduce them while not letting quality suffer so we all can make more money.
Mr. Doyle, what are your unique costs that could be added to the discussion? what ways have you improved your process to keep profits up while costs of materials increase?
for me, i have drilling jigs so holes go same place every time without measuring and marking. file jig and grinding jig to set bevel same way every time. i use zirconium sanding belts that work as well as ceramic in finer grits. I wet grind when finishing to reduce chance of overheating blade and ruining the temper and as a bonus get extended belt life.
 
A belt cleaner (giant rubber eraser thing) is a a huge money saver. Belts and paper on a disc grinder get clogged long before they actually get dull. Using one of these cleaners probably gets you 5x the life out of belts.
 
scott.livesey said:
Mr. Doyle, what are your unique costs that could be added to the discussion? what ways have you improved your process to keep profits up while costs of materials increase?
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I don't recall ever claiming I had any 'unique costs' to add to this discussion. In post #2 of this thread, I outlined pretty clearly part of my approach.

As for the rest, I cater to the custom crowd that puts high priority on handmade and unique and high quality materials and processes.

I'll be quite honest....I'm probably not all that efficient. I like making one knife at a time. And I'm not very fast.....at all. I'm not sure I know what every knife costs to the penny. But I do my books every month and keep track of every receipt diligently. And my monthly books are always in the black. I set a good price for my knives and I get what I ask for them.

I've carved out my niche making sure I'm on top of heat treating and performance, producing clean knives with nice proportions and flow and lines.....made with premium materials and nice embellishments.

I work when I feel like it and when I need to. And if I don't....I don't. I love my wife and kids and spending time with them. And I love fly fishing and I go when I feel like it.

But I worked really hard to get to that point. I drummed up business anywhere and everywhere I could. I posted my knives on 7 different forums at one time (some no longer exist). And now I use Instagram.

I post clear quality pics with good clear close ups and detail shots. No photo shopped flaws or blurry unclear pics that look like they're hiding something. My work is abundantly out there for all to see.

Is yours Scott? For as much advice as you dole out, I recall seeing very little, if any, of your work. Our pictures are our resumes....our portfolios. Others use that to determine if the advice we give is valid, and if they want to follow it or not.
 
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i haven't been out to the shop for a while as the wife has had 2 hospital stays over a week long in the last two months. glad your business is doing well.
 
scott.livesey said:
i haven't been out to the shop for a while as the wife has had 2 hospital stays over a week long in the last two months. glad your business is doing well.
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Sorry to hear about your wife Scott. My thoughts and prayers will be with her for a timely recovery.
 
Back to page one where this started......I whole heatedly 2nd, 3rd, 4th,.... not taking orders! If you are newish and a part timer don't do that to yourself, you'll get bored and burned out. I started an order list when I first started selling and soon realized that it was going to take me a year or more to make that many, and the list kept growing. Also, after making about 25 of the exact same thing in a row, I started loathing going to the shop, it wasn't fun. I burnt myself out on one of my favorite patterns, to this day I still feel dread when I think about making another one. Full timers probably have to keep those orders, but dont rush it. I think your goal should just be to get better with each knife, explore what you might want to make, and try new techniques without any pressure. Sell the one's you do make to help cover your materials and new tools. Milk social media! I've still never charged $500 for a knife, but I've got close.
 
I'm one of the rare weirdos who likes taking orders. BUT, and this is a big BUT, price and lead time is everything when taking orders. If you feel like every hour in the shop is making you money it takes the sting out of making whatever it is you're making. Now, that doesn't mean you want to be a slave to the backlog. Once my prices got high enough the tire kickers began to weed themselves out (which allowed me to slow down) and I also stopped working long into the night to keep up with nothing to show for it.

However, there is absolute truth to the fact that taking orders slows your skill development down. You can't be learning to engrave or carve leather if you are busy grinding out your umpteenth basic kitchen knife, with an ever growing backlog for more of the same. You have to stretch yourself by taking on orders for more intricate knife designs, or by quoting long lead times so that you can build time into your schedule for working on your new ideas. That's what I do.

So, why take orders at all? The simple answer is cash flow. Tracy made a great point some time ago about where you find yourself in the knifemaking order of things: Hobby maker, Part Timer, Full Timer. I won't go into it, but his explanation was very spot on and very enlightening because each one of those has a different set of needs vs goals. I find myself in the Part Timer category. I want a certain amount of cash flow coming in from knives on a regular basis, but I don't need to make enough to survive. I want enough money coming in to where my knifemaking supports itself with a little left over for me when I want it.
 
Here's another thing to consider: How does the TYPE of knife you want to make affect your business model?

First, let's assume you want knifemaking to be profitable. Go back to what John Doyle said about keeping the books. (If you are in the black at the end of every month, you have accomplished what very few small businesses have accomplished in any endeavor.)

So- you want to be profitable. You need to find a model that works for you.

Business Models:

1. Make a modest profit per knife and make a whole lot knives. To do this you need a design that lends itself to fast turnaround and less individual attention. You need to have advanced manufacturing skills as well as experience with automation. You'll never beat Walmart on price, so you still have to turn our a knife that appeals to the handmade/custom market. This sounds simple, but costs are very high due to equipment capitation. Automation isn't cheap.

2. Make a decent profit margin on a higher end user knife, which allows you to make the same amount of money in total while making fewer knives. The key here is efficiency balanced with artistry. Your product needs to scream quality and look custom, but you can't spend forever on each knife.

3. Make a large profit per knife on very expensive knives. Here you find the master craftsman / artist. Magazine cover quality. This one comes with a huge time commitment to each knife. Mistakes are costly. Unique is a given. The price is driven by details and embellishments for very discerning clients. The challenge here for a one-man operation is how to turn out enough knives so that those high margins actually add up. Making $2,000 profit per knife sounds great, but not if you're only able to do five per year as a full time maker. Compare the shop of a full time maker to that of a hobbyist and you find out real quick that to turn out a significant number of very nice knives means you can't spend all day on grunt work that adds no value to the sale price. You can't work like a hobbyist and make money.

Each one has its own challenges and I don't believe that one is any better than the other. I think you need to determine which model gives you satisfaction on a personal level but also fits your lifestyle, your work flow, your skill set, your shop's capacity/tooling, and your goals for long term business sustainability.
 
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John Wilson said:
I want a certain amount of cash flow coming in from knives on a regular basis, but I don't need to make enough to survive. I want enough money coming in to where my knifemaking supports itself with a little left over for me when I want it.
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This is where I find myself. I don't need to make a living from knives but I'd like to reach the point where they pay for themselves.

I spend 30-40 hours on a folder. Now there's definitely places where I can trim some of that time but it's still very time consuming.

I have a full time job and 30 or 40 hours at that pays a lot more than I can charge for a knife. But knife making is a hobby and I don't need to get rich from it but it'd be nice to at least recoup the cash I've outlaid for materials.

But I guess the first step is getting to the point where I'm selling my knives.
 
John Wilson said:
I want enough money coming in to where my knifemaking supports itself with a little left over for me when I want it.
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Exactly where I want to be now. Over the past three years I have worked on the quality of my knives by asking enough to cover the materials so I can improve my skills using other’s money but they benefitted too by receiving a knife worth more than they paid. I am happy, with the performance of my knives. My aesthetics, I think, will always need work but I am ready to accept profit for my knives. I have made a website and offered knives for order but after reading this I think I will switch. I really like the idea of doing what I want to do and letting those who appreciate it buy it. I already mentioned my ADD so I think it would be hard for me to continually make the same knife the same way over and over. Thanks guys you really helped me out here.
 
Chris Railey said:
..... My aesthetics, I think, will always need work but I am ready to accept profit for my knives....
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Hi Chris. To continue improving aesthetics, I would encourage you to post pics of every knife with good clear photos. Include close ups of detail/ transition areas or areas you may feel you struggle with. Ask for critique from veteran makers, especially ones that have style/design elements similar to what you're shooting for.

Go to shows near you when possible to look at other handmade knives. They can be better makers or worse makers. Seeing bad knives you DON'T want to make can be as educational as seeing nice ones you DO want to make.
 
J. Doyle said:
Go to shows near you when possible to look at other handmade knives. They can be better makers or worse makers. Seeing bad knives you DON'T want to make can be as educational as seeing nice ones you DO want to make.
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Exactly, I was at Fire on the Mountain blacksmith festival and I saw many artisans there. Many were better than I, some about the same, some in my opinion only, producing lesser quality knives. I learned something from all of them that day. Especially one guy who made some really cool friction folders. I do not remember his name but he was also a jeweler, he took the time to talk to me about the construction of his knives and even let me take a couple of photos of my favorites (would have bought it if I could afford it). I remember thinking about some of the knives I saw there and I said to myself, I would not put my name on that knife and this guy is here selling it. Some time later I realized that attitude was not only wrong but bordering on hypocritical. Take my example of the friction folder I could not afford, it was beautiful, copper handle san mai blade a lot of work went into that knife. I love friction folders and IF there had been one there of lesser quality (and in turn, price) I would have purchased it. It was then I realized people will buy what they WANT when they can afford it. Some people can afford the copper folder with san mai but some can only afford the railroad spike knife with the rounded off tip but they all appreciated the work enough to purchase it. The real point here is the purchasers were happy to have a handmade object and the seller was happy someone appreciated their work enough to purchase it. That dynamic does not change no matter if you charge $50 or $1000 dollars for your knives. In short my friends, it does not matter how YOU feel about what someone else charges for their work because in the end it is only your opinion and everyone has one. If my knives were the same as your knives, and your knives were the same as all other knives and we all built to the same quality and aesthetics then we would all compete with one another and no one would benefit, consumer or artist. I do not have to be like you and you do not have to be like me and THAT IS OK my friends. Sorry I got off topic there but the post evolved...I blame the ADD.

Thank you J. Doyle for the advice De MO told me the same thing about my photos, I know they suck but I am studying how to squeeze the most out of my limited photography skill. I appreciate all or your opinions on my work I have learned so much in my short time here. I am not a forum lizard but this place is worth joining and staying.
 
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Well I have tried to stay out of this thread but something keeps drawing me back in!! So here goes. There is a lot of good info in this thread! I can only speak from my own experiences!

First I think you have to look at knife making as too what level you are and what level want to achieve. For myself I am a part timer. I started into this because I have always made things, knives being one of those things! My wife has been sick for the past 10yrs. So some weeks I may not even turn the lights on in the shop! You have to have your priorities straight. That is where the statement, knife making can destroy a family. You have to be able to work without all the flashy stuff. At least in the beginning!!

The statement by Ed Caffery about a custom knife is not something you have to have, it is a luxury. That statement is so true, and not everyone will ever want one!!
First you have to overcome the Walmart mentality. By that I mean this. When I first got started a friend asked me what you been up to. My reply was I have been making some custom knives. Without asking anything else he asks how much for one. Taken back, I just put out a price. Oh around a $100.00 or more depending on what you want. His reply was but I can go to Walmart and get one anywhere from $20.00 bucks up to $60.00! You have lost that sale before you even start, so don't try!!!

I sold my first on eBay for what equated to giving it away, $50.00! My thoughts was I want to get my work out there. What I got out there was, you sold that knife for X amount now everyone wants one for $50.00! Never mind what I want is a whole lot more complicated!

My next skinner was an order. It went out for a $100.00, and I thought I had it made. Till I set back and got to thinking of the cost of making my knife!! Not to mention I paid the shipping! Boy was I dumb back then!!

Then there was nothing, no one ordering and not even selling my speculation pieces. Bad economy, somewhat but what I began to realize was this.
I hadn't got my name out there and you can only sell/give so many away before you realize this is not profitable. That is when I sit down and realized, even though my knives at the time were good. They could be better and if I wanted to work towards profit they had to be better!! So that is the goal I set out to accomplish!!

John Doyle said take good pictures. That is the best thing you can do. Why because the camera does not lie! You will see things in that photo you never saw before! I have done it with my knives. The flaw was glaring in the photo, so I had to go back and pick up the knife and. Sure enough even though I had never picked up on it, there was the flaw I had seen in the photo. I recently saw a photo posted on this forum by a seasoned maker. My eye caught something in the photo that I would be willing to bet the maker had not noticed before!!

As to make a profit at this can't say I can tell you how, I am still trying to figure it out for myself. I know when, I did cabinet work or custom furniture. I figured a percentage for consumable's on each project. Sanding belts, propane, glue, repair/replacement of machines, etc. etc.. You will never get every dollar back, so don't expect it!! Materials, in our case that is steel, handle material, screws, bolts, fasteners, leather for sheath, or kydex!

As to making a profit, so far I have no doubt I am probably not accomplishing that at present. I am having to be content to breaking even on some of these knives!

As to price, I learned when doing carpentry work, the quality of your work sets the price. So improve your quality and you will command a better price. If the economy is in the crapper, it really ain't going to matter to much. A Van Gough only sells, if you can afford it!! I will tell you this, don't give your knives away if you want to make a business of it! It also doesn't help when you go to Craigslist and see something like this!!


Craigslist .jpg
Nice little knife 7"O.A. with 3 1/4"blade.custom maker is in Tampa and uses D-2 steel ,Rockwell 57-59.Stock removal method used not forged.No markings.Hardwood scales.Very nicely done with handmade leather sheath.Very sharp ,and it keeps it edge.See photos
Text or call .I do not use e mail.
This is a very handy knife for those who want a fixed blade knife.High carbon tool steel so must be whipped dry after use.But it really keeps its edge.contact info :

It also doesn't help when the competition is giving there's away either, it is priced at $25.00! This is not a bad looking knife or sheath. Who ever is selling it has knowledge you can tell by the write up. At that price they just gave it away!!!

So I am still trying to learn how to make a business of this. I will say this it took me years to build my reputation as a carpenter. I don't know if I still have that many years left in me to build up a reputation as a knife maker!!

One other thing I will share with you! When I was just a kid about 14 yrs of age, I went to work for my father as a carpenter in training. We were between jobs one day when I hear an add on the radio for one of our competition builders in the area. I turned to my Father and asked him why don't your advertise on the radio or the newspaper??

He looked at me and replied.

I don't have to, "if I do a good job, my name gets around fast enough, if I do a bad job my name will beat me from job to job"!! I have always kept that in mind and have always based my efforts, in business and in life on that concept!!
 
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The best way to make a good profitable living as a knifemaker is to have a supportive loving spouse with a good steady job.

I'm lucky there. I said my books are in the black every month, and they are. We actually profit from my knifemaking. But without my wife's good income, we'd have a real tough (read probably impossible) time supporting our family of 5 on just my income.
 
J. Doyle said:
The best way to make a good profitable living as a knifemaker is to have a supportive loving spouse with a good steady job.
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True words. I do not earn a living making knives but the only way I can even make them is my wife is a stay at home mom and she loves it so the house and kids are always taken care of giving me time to try and make a few...knives not kids.
 
Ill make one of you guys a 4 knives all you gotta do is send me $5k lol, I am quoting the cost of some belts and a belt grinder into those knives
 
JJB11B said:
Ill make one of you guys a 4 knives all you gotta do is send me $5k lol, I am quoting the cost of some belts and a belt grinder into those knives
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Done I'll write you check, you just can't cash it until 10/1/2222. Send me the knives.
 
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