Lets talk the Business of Knifemaking.
- Thread starter Austin Thrasher
- Start date
EdCaffreyMS
"The Montana Bladesmith"
I do. In the beginning, I made the entire mechanism and all, but quickly realized that the market for a $1K+ pen was VERY small. 
So what I do now is kit parts, using my own damascus...... much less time consuming, so they can be sold at a much lower price.
So what I do now is kit parts, using my own damascus...... much less time consuming, so they can be sold at a much lower price.
scott.livesey
Dealer - Purveyor
not sure what you meant. don't matta. you need to keep track of all costs to start. second, get the most out of you materials. if you have access to a good metal bandsaw or a plasma cutter, buy bigger pieces of steel and cut blanks for minimum waste. pin material is cheaper by the foot than by the inch. screws, nuts, and bolts are cheaper by the 100 than the each.
the biggest cost is time, what are you paying yourself. $20 an hour is a good starting point. you have to pay yourself or it is just a hobby not a business. figure total time add that to material and shipping of finished product and you have the break even price.
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J. Doyle
Dealer - Purveyor
Scott, just so I understand, are you saying that the aforementioned skinner should come in under $250?
If so, I'd have to say that that isn't a good general 'blanket' statement. There are a LOT of variables that would determine whether that would be true or not.
Ty Adams
KNIFE MAKER
Scott why are you so against other makers getting paid for a higher end knife? I'm not trying to start an argument with you, just trying to understand where you are coming from. There is a market for all level of handmade knives. If you want to make user level knives that work well and you only have to spend a couple of hours working and sell them $120 good on you. There is a market for that. If it makes you happy do it.
But you really don't like the guys who will spend 30+ hours making a knife where they try to get all the small details right. They should get paid for their time. And more often then not people are willing to spend their hard cash on a finely crafted luxury item. Every maker has a place in the market. To keep telling successful makers that they are doing it wrong because they get $400 to $2000 a knife is something I do not understand. Please enlighten me to why I should stop trying to obtain a quality level of John Doyle and Ed Caffrey.
Guindesigns
Well-Known Member
I was thinking about this just the other day. This is a great post with some awesome advice.
John Wilson
Well-Known Member
I think you misread what I posted.
Sale price is set by the market value of your finished product. Your cost is what determines your profit.
This is a truism regardless of product or industry.
scott.livesey
Dealer - Purveyor
i don't care how much folks pay you. i don't care how much time you spend. my point was if you have 35 hours invested in a knife, you should be including a minimum of $700(35hrs x $20/hr) for labor. if $20/hr isn't fair, make it $30 or $40, but know how many hours were involved and add that cost to the list.
where did I say it is wrong to get $400 to $2000 a knife? if you can get that, enjoy it.
i worked in manufacturing and repair a long time, i try to apply industrial best practices to making knives. get materials and consumables for the best price. sit down a look at your process. is there a way to reduce man hours without changing quality? how are you actually spending your time in the shop? if you reduce man hours, you reduce your costs and increase your profit. basic business 101.
read the post from several years ago i referenced. when you blades are in temper oven, work on next batch or clean up or do your handle prep. as said, if i am heat treating one blade of O1, it will take 3 to 4 hours. if i heat treat 6, it will take 4 to 5 hours. did i reduce quality by going from HT time of 4 hours to HT time of 45 minutes per blade? for a group of knives, have a standard tang hole pattern and make a tang hole drilling jig. no measuring, no fussing. drill the tang holes in six blades in less time than it would take to measure and mark one. did we reduce quality?
so what are the variables? if you know them and make the best use of your time, so be it. above instead of saying "need", how does "might want to" sound?
list those variables so newbies can find out where hidden costs are. there are folks here from manufacturing and machining that may have ideas for reducing those variables.
J. Doyle
Dealer - Purveyor
First, I'm not exactly sure what this is referring to.
Well....without even getting into cost-per-knife variables, there are variables from maker to maker that could drastically affect price.
A simple, no-frills knife from one maker could be made from mystery junkyard steel with poor uneven grinds, rough belt finish, uneven plunge lines, plain looking scales from the backyard apple tree and be dull as a butter knife and come with a rough poorly finished sheath. That knife is likely a rip off at $250.
Another maker might make a simple, no-frills knife with cpm-3v, flat even grinds, symmetrical even plunges, a beautiful 1000 grit hand finish, and some 5A premium curly koa scales and is razor sharp and include a nice tooled and dyed sheath. That knife would be a STEAL at $250 and the maker would lose money.
scott.livesey
Dealer - Purveyor
if your costs exceed market value there is a loss not profit. that was the whole point of former thread. first identify all costs, then reduce costs while maintaining quality so your total costs are always below market value.
John Wilson
Well-Known Member
Exactly right. I didn’t specify that costs are used to determine your minimum sale price. I thought that was self evident but perhaps someone needs to have that spelled out.
scott.livesey
Dealer - Purveyor
to help us all be better business people, we need to look at all cost-per-knife variables. in the old thread, we even included propane for the forge or electricity for the furnace. what variables do you have that are unique enough to 'drastically' effect price?
is there a industry standard that shows/tells me the difference between 5A premium and 3C sorta plain scales?
J. Doyle
Dealer - Purveyor
Scott- direct question.....are you able to distinguish different levels of craftsmanship?
I'm being totally sincere and I honestly don't know the answer. Many of your recent posts come across as a knife is a knife is a knife.
In a very general sense, beauty is in the eye of the beholder but that only goes so far. There are good grinds and bad grinds. There is okay handle material and there is premium handle material. There are rough, scratched finishes and there are even, uniform finishes.
These are concepts that I thought were self evident across these boards but a lot of your posts leave me scratching my head.
Do you notice these distinctions or are all knives more or less the same to you?
Again....I couldn't be more sincere and I mean no offense.
I'm being totally sincere and I honestly don't know the answer. Many of your recent posts come across as a knife is a knife is a knife.
In a very general sense, beauty is in the eye of the beholder but that only goes so far. There are good grinds and bad grinds. There is okay handle material and there is premium handle material. There are rough, scratched finishes and there are even, uniform finishes.
These are concepts that I thought were self evident across these boards but a lot of your posts leave me scratching my head.
Do you notice these distinctions or are all knives more or less the same to you?
Again....I couldn't be more sincere and I mean no offense.
J. Doyle
Dealer - Purveyor
This makes me think you didn't read and/or comprehend my previous post.
Probably somewhere. In all honesty, I've never even seen this question asked before. Its one of those things I mentioned that seems pretty obvious.
Surely you can notice a difference between mostly plain maple with two tiny little rays of curl that are barely visible in direct sunlight and bold, tiger stripe end to end curl you could see in the dark......right? Or redwood with one tiny cluster of burl eyes in one little corner of the handle vs. A burl block that has 25+ burl eyes in every square inch?
Surely no chart or defined written 'rule' is necessary for that, is it? One is pretty plain and average and one is pretty spectacular, premium.
I've never been afforded the opportunity to have to explain that concept.
scott.livesey
Dealer - Purveyor
a good grind is not a variable, it is a must have. even uniform finish is a must have. cigarette paper slicing sharpness is a must have. good HT is a must have. that is what we base our quality standards on. okay handle material and premium handle material is a difference in raw material costs.
i asked about industry standard because hardwood, SPF, gun stocks, and wood instrument makers all have one, thought knife scales had one too.
again, this a thread where we can list and discuss all the costs of making a knife, reducing costs improves the profits for everybody. maybe someone can start a parallel thread about marketing and where to sell.
i asked about industry standard because hardwood, SPF, gun stocks, and wood instrument makers all have one, thought knife scales had one too.
again, this a thread where we can list and discuss all the costs of making a knife, reducing costs improves the profits for everybody. maybe someone can start a parallel thread about marketing and where to sell.
J. Doyle
Dealer - Purveyor
Sooooooo........you're saying that if any maker makes a basic 4" hunter/utility knife with good grinds, good finishes, good sharpness and good materials and his price comes out to $250......then he needs to re-evaluate his process to reduce labor so his cost an come down to a more 'acceptable' (to you) level?
You're gonna have to explain that one to me.
You're gonna have to explain that one to me.
scott.livesey
Dealer - Purveyor
no, so he can make a higher profit and continue making knives. i don't give a rat's rump what price is charged. i don't know where you get this 'acceptable" nonsense. we should all be re-evaluating our process continually, that is the only way to improve.
again, whole purpose of thread is to identify costs and if possible reduce them so we all can make more money. we must also look at the market, there are many choices out there, some hand made, some from small companies, some from big companies. you have to find a niche where your product can sell.
J. Doyle
Dealer - Purveyor
You're the one who said...
That reads, to me, that YOU FEEL $250 is not an acceptable price for " a 4 inch Skinner", and he needs to figure out how to get his costs down.
Is that not what you meant?
Ty Adams
KNIFE MAKER
This thread went off topic. Make knives until they start to sell. When you figure out the type of consumer that want to buy your knives target them. Adjust your prices according to style. Do a cost analysis on how much it cost to make a knife. Keep everything in mind, hard costs of consumables, including electricity and maintenance on equipment.
Scott thanks for sharing your thoughts on this. I have ran a cost analysis for what my knives cost, even going as far as weighting my epoxy. Consumable, employee, and maintenance costs are a big part of what I do in my everyday job.
Scott thanks for sharing your thoughts on this. I have ran a cost analysis for what my knives cost, even going as far as weighting my epoxy. Consumable, employee, and maintenance costs are a big part of what I do in my everyday job.