Lets talk ladder pattern

Bruce Bump

Bruce Bump

Forum Owner-Moderator
Is there a forumula for layer count for a given thickness of steel and the distance the grooves are cut or dies pressed into the steel? I bet I'm not the only one that has had poor results with supposedly the simplest of damascus patterns "the ladder pattern"
Sometimes they look great until I grind the bevel and then the ladder is gone, sometimes the blade looks great but it is too thin to be a bowie. My friend Bob and I did one and just named it "The Razor Bowie" :lol:

Done correctly its a fine even beautiful pattern completely across the blade and shimmies in the moonlight.
 
The formula I was taught was thirds. If you want to end up with a piece of finished steel at say 1/8 thick you start with a piece 3 times that so 3/8. I mill the grooves down about .100 on each side. I also find that the pattern just comes out better if I mill the grooves instead of pressing them in.
 
My formula for ladder depends on how it's made.....if made the traditional way, by cutting grooves, I go with 300-350 layers, then offset the grooves on each side, spaced as closely as possible. If I want the finished billet/blade to be 1/4" thick, the laddering is done when the billet is 3/4" thick, with the grooves cut approx. 1/3 (or 1/4" deep in each side). Since this is a "stock removal pattern" (made by removing stock from the billet) in order to keep all that pattern, it is necessary to forge it as closely as possible to finished....and utilize a minimum of stock removal

If the pattern is pressed in, I will go to 350-400 layers, and run it through the "ladder dies" (how fine or coarse the ladder are will be dictated by the diameter of the rods used on your laddering dies)...I have two sets of laddering dies, one is 1/4" rods with 1/4" spacing in and offset pattern from top to bottom die. This produces a very fine ladder with lots of that "sparkle" you mentioned. I also have dies that use 3/8" rods.
The down side to pressing in the pattern is that you will wind up wasting about 2/3 of your billet when grinding it flat. The up side is that the pattern goes all the way through, and you cannot grind it out. It's been a while since I've made any ladder pattern.....honestly, after building Mosaics, it's kinda boring to me.
 
Good info Ed. I too think ladder is old stuff but people still buy knives with it. I do like it especially if it shimmers. So 350-400 layers with a tight spacing but 1/3rd deep from both sides. It does seem like allot of waste for such a simple pattern but all damascus does waste steel one way or another.
 
Personally I like to make a thicker ladder billet and then bias forge it.

Bruce,
Have you seen the advanced damascus patterning DVD by J.D. Smith?
 
Hi Chuck,
No, havent seen that one. I have seen the old Bill Maran and Dr Jim Hirshilas (sp) VHS videos. Jim talks of different layer thicknesses to give a different pattern from the laddering. I might play with that.
Would you explain how you Bias forge yours?
Chuck Gedraitis Knives said:
Personally I like to make a thicker ladder billet and then bias forge it.

Bruce,
Have you seen the advanced damascus patterning DVD by J.D. Smith?
Click to expand...
 
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I usually use 275-300 layers and press the pattern in. My favorite die is quater inch rods welded edge to edge and obviously offset to and bttom. I then ground grooves between the rods. That gives the steel a small peak to form into and helps raise the layers up. Also allows me to pattern a thinner billet and grind off less steel

Matt

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I started this thread about this time last year and just now got around to whipping my ladder damascus issue.
I spent allot of time and money on steel and propane and just wasnt happy with my ladders I was getting. Even with all the above advice I broke down and just ordered Als Riverside Machines 1/4" die set.

The die holder below is from our Washington State Pen license plate manufacturing dept. The state went to some reflective tape system and made an entire alphabet of these cool "die holders" obsolete. I found 3 of them in my buddys junk yard. Anyway with some mods of coarse this contraption works cool! It has the ability to hold the die and follow the same angle as the bevels thanks to a spring and slotted upper arm so theres no chance of washing out the pattern at the edge. I forged in the bevels and then used the dies. I have a stop also but with just a little care it wasnt needed.

So here is 360 layers drawn out to just a tad over 3/8" thick at the spine and 3/16" at the edge. Its not needed to set the bevels but I wanted to be sure the pattern goes all the way through. Maybe overkill but this way I'm sure. I'll post the results asap. Thanks for looking.

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Bruce. Im sure this will turn out as amazing and awe inspiring as all your knives!! I cant wait to see the results of the U.A. dies.
 
Here is the final bowie from using the ladder dies from Als Riverside. I like the pattern allot, much better than my grinding and forging grooves in the blank. I have a hunting knife ready to grind too. So easy this way, maybe too easy.

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The damascus looks great. It all works together well with the stainless fittings and choice of handle material. A really beautiful knife.
 
You sure made that old ladder pattern sing, Bruce. Outstanding combination of materials in a over the top knife.
 
Holly Smokes Bruce, I would say you got your ladder pattern figured out.....That Sir is awesome.

It is hollow ground.....yea?

Dwane
 
Thanks guys.
Yep she,s hollow ground on a 14"wheel. That pre ban bark ivory was a pain to find but worth the hunt.
 
Thanks guys for all the votes of confidence.
I just now got these finished photos from Jim Cooper and had to show em to ya. Engraving and good quality photos make a world of difference.

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Bruce,
While I will agree that engraving makes a big difference, and adds a lot of eye appeal, it is your talent that allows the engraver to have a canvas to engrave on, and without your "canvas", Coop wouldn't have away to display his talent! It's OK to say, "I made this AWESOME KNIFE"! Just every once in a while, ya just don't do it all the time, YOU NEVER DO IT!!! Much like the former coach of the University of Alabama, when they lost, it was all his fault, and whenever they won, it was ALL the PLAYERS and the Assistant coaches hard work. I'm not an Alabama fan, but I have always loved Coach Bear Bryant!!!

Modesty is a great thing and to be admired, but when your skill is at your level of excellence, it's so cute, (and not in a Broke Back Mountain kinda way either),....seriously, the level of excellence that you regularly operate at blows my mind! Like everything you make, it's exquisite!

Your work and graciousness inspires me to try things I wouldn't have tried otherwise, I just can't wait to see what you come up with next! Rex
 
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