Is G10, Micarta? And is "Micarta" G10?

EdCaffreyMS

EdCaffreyMS

"The Montana Bladesmith"
Yesterday I was browsing Ebay, and ran across an auction that said "Antique Yellow Micarta", which of course caught my eye. When I looked at the photo and read the description it just didn't match. The image looked like G10, and parts of the description read like it was G10, and part of the description read like it was Micarta.

So I emailed the seller and asked specifics about exactly which the material was.....and got jumped all over! I simply asked if the material was paper, linen, or canvas "Micarta", or if it was G10.
I tried to explain that there is a distinct difference between the two and that I wanted to make sure of exactly what the material was. I went on to tell the seller that if it was G10, and I purchased it with the assumption that it was in fact antique yellow micarta, I would not be happy, and would be asking for a return/refund.

I got a really snotty reply telling me that there is no difference between the two materials (Micarta & G10) and that I needed to learn what I was talking about before asking any questions. :)

So, my question to everyone is this: As a knifemaker, is there any difference between "Micarta" and G10? And, if you thought you were ordering one of those, and got the other, would it make any difference to you? (this is kind of a rhetorical question, but I'd like to know what others think)
 
They are not the same, G10 uses fiberglass mesh for the structure and micarta uses canvas, paper, etc. G10 is also typically heavier than micarta and I believe it probably has indistrial specifications which must be met in it's manufacture, at least in certain grades/applications.
There are probably some products out there that are somewhat of a crossover of these two materials, G10 with layers of linen or such, but the basic materials do differ.
I have noticed that G10 does not absorb oil or sweat from your skin, while every type of micarta I have used to date will, at least to some extent.
 
Hi, Ed,
There is a difference between them and I wouldn't be happy if I bought one and received the other even though both are excellent material. I'm sure you know, but for the discussion, G10 is a glass cloth epoxy resin laminated under high pressure. Micarta is a high pressure thermoset laminate with cotton canvas fabric or paper in a phenolic resin. However, both are made by Norplex and they do call both Micarta. No one spends much time on ebay without encountering an idiot, but it's always discouraging to anyone that tries to treat everyone with respect like you do. I have become pretty hardnosed and look at the profile close. There are getting to be more and more people on ebay that I won't deal with regardless of the price, both buying and selling. As a seller, you can set up an account that will refuse bids from any one you choose. The bottom line for the person you were dealing with is that he was a loser if he was selling handle material or Bibles.
 
I happen to like the old Ivory or Paper Micarta that yellows with age.
There is a difference between G10 and Micarta and I would be very upset if ordered one and didn't get what was described.

With ebay, all ways do what you did... Ask a lot of questions.
 
I've only used an actual Micarta once. It was linen. I hated it. I didn't have the equipment I have now, but it clogged my belts so bad and just overall sucked to work with.

G10 however is impossible to cut, but it grinds nicely. I bought some G10 from AlphaKnifeSupply recently, but I haven't gotten to use it yet. I have used G11 though.


And in a technical sense, there is a BIG difference between "micarta" and "g10" You can whip out this chart for the seller to see the difference. It's in the materials in it. Each one is different; Micarta is just the manufacturer.

micarta.png



On a second thought, it might be best not to confuse them too much with big fancy charts...
 
They are not the same.
If I bought one, and got the other,
I would be pi$$d witless.
I wish I knew who the seller is,
so I can put him in my ignore list.
There is to many Ebay sellers,
selling to much over priced stuff,
to put up with that kind of attitude...

/ al
 
Ed,

I too know the difference and would be miffed if I was expecting one and got the other !

If you're looking for Antique Ivory (PAPER) Micarta (with the yellowed look) Sheffields supply has it in sizes 1 1/2 x5 5x12 10x12 in thicknesses of 1/8 3/16 1/4 3/8 and 1 1/8

I got a couple pairs of scales from them and its pretty stuff. Even put it on a knife but had too grind it off due to a pin error :(

I still have the scales though and would be happy to snap a pic and post if you wanna see EXACTLY what you'ld be recieving from them.

Take care,

Josh
 
They finish out differently. Linen and canvas micarta has a somewhat organic look to it due to the fabric. G-10 still has some texture to it but the fiberglass doesn't contrast with the colored resin so it appears to be solidly that color. So yes they are different to me as well. It might not matter in some other application but in knives a lot of people know the difference.
 
The others have defined the difference pretty well. G10 is a generic term for epoxy based fiberglass laminate. Micarta(tm) is a trademark of Norplex and they will take steps to defend their trademark. Last fall I received an email from Norplex asking me to stop using the term Micarta as a generic term for phenolic resin laminate. I made several changes to my web site. I don't blame them at all. It is their burden to take steps to protect their trademark. I talked to them on the phone. They even apologized for the trouble. They were good about it and I respect how they handled it.

In knife making circles, G10 and Micarta are often used interchangeably as a generic term for one or the other. We sure could use a generic, easy off the tongue term for Micarta other than 'phenolic resin laminate'. Until that happens we will continue to have misunderstandings.
 
Old Westinghouse "micarta" (or whatever) goes for high bucks on Ebay (I've seen a pair of scales go for over $100 before). Likely the seller caught on and was hoping that someone would buy their G10 laminate in the hopes of getting some original aged Westinghouse laminate.
 
I've used micarta, shadetree phenolics, some other mycarta, G10 and G11.

I can't tell the difference between G10 and G11, both cut best if already in scale thicknesses with a cheap "sharktooth" handsaw and a good fine tooth hacksaw. You'll destroy both over time, but it beats instantly dulling a bandsaw blade.

To cut large blocks down, a wet tilesaw is the best I've found so far.

The shadetree phenolics has some interesting "issues" in it- it tends to shrink a bit more than regular micarta initially, so I treat the finishing state like wood (2 days in a dehydrator at 115F with clamps after glue up). The burlap I generally work with finished out wonderfully at 220-320 with some 400 on tighter radii. Excellent stuff and has a softer handfeel than a lot of micartas.

Mycartas vary.

micarta is a really excellent material, but nothing at all like G10/G11. First- the various base materials make a huge difference in finish level, feel, and working.

A canvas finished out to 240 is grippy and rough, but I tend to work to "worn 320" and do a soak (I'll get to that) and the grippy texture will come out with a very short break in period.

Linen is excellent stuff and looks GOOD with a 400-600 grit finish. The fibers are finer and will still get the grippiness. The soak I do has less effect here, but still is noticeable in finish appearance.

paper is.... I'm working with some black paper right now and every stray 600 grit scratch shows like a meteor trail!- the finished look in white or black is amazing, but you have to finish at a very high level. The last piece I finished was done by hand to 800 grit and then hand rubbed with leather for a fair period of time. I'm still experimenting with soaks on this.


Soaking- Most people leave micarta alone, which is fine. I appreciate that part of the grippiness effect comes from the fibers. But that also means the fibers will accept 'additives'- be it blood or chicken slime, water or oil. My practice is to do a full immersion linseed oil soak for a day, then let it drip out and cure. a quick rub down with 0000 steel wool and it's done. Looks fantastic that way.

Papers... I'm still debating what is best. I'm leaning towards caranuba wax as I go.

If I ordered a white micarta- paper is all I've seen, but paper or linen- and got G10 glass fiber, I'd sure as heck notice the difference!
 
Good discussion. Thanks for asking the question Ed and thanks to all who replied. I learned something today.
 
My 2 cents worth: Ed, I wouldn't bother confusing the seller with facts - sounds like he already knows everything there is to know about everything.
 
Yeah, but I would hate to buy somethign stated as one thing and get another- and then have to fight for weeks or months to get the issue fixed (granted, I could use whatever it was I got on some project or another.)
 
:) Denny! :)

That was kinda my feeling too. The seller has sent me about 1/2 dozen emails, trying to get me to believe that it's all "Micarta". I finally told him that in the knifemakeing world there is a distinct difference, not only to the makers, but to our customers as well, and to do whatever he wants, and I'll look to fill my needs elsewhere.

He wanted to brag to me about how he has 100% rating on Ebay, and then sent several links to internet sites that claim "Micarta" is a general term to describe all "phenolic laminates" (I guess if it's on the internet it must be true! :eek::eek:)......Well, my customers know the difference between "Micarta" and G10.....so I'd better darn well know it too.

If it's supposedly all the same thing, then why do knife handle suppliers like Masecraft (and all the other knife supply outfits) list each under it's own heading in their online store?? :confused:

Maybe this guy is selling to newer or less experienced knifemakers..... or like Denny said....he's an "expert", and us old knifemakers are just out of touch with reality. :)
 
Everyone has described the differences quite well. Personally, I will very occasionally use Micarta or "mycarta" but won't consider G10/11 because I really, really dislike digging fiberglass out of myself (let's not even think about carbon fiber).

As for the seller, sounds like someone to avoid like the plague.
 
I am not sure if it is the same person but I sent a question to an ebay seller that is using "micarta" and "G10" to describe the same product. Their response is that in the future they will not be using Micarta to describe their product, and thanked me for steering them toward a correct description. :unsure:
 
Ed I think the guy needs to go behind the wood pile and talk like that. People like that have the big man syndrome when they talk tha way they think they know what they are talking about. All in all I know we cant bash but ebay brings the best out in alot of people.
 
One way to tell the difference is to grind it too fast/hot. Nothing too dramatic will happen to micarta but G10 will scorch badly, smoke, stink to high heaven and actually sort of shred/pull apart. This is mildly interesting but it will not make you smile if you do it to scales that are already on a knife :mad:

Why anyone would insist they're the same thing is beyond me. I guess plywood is micarta too, by that reasoning (hey, it's a laminate right?):confused:

I like G10 handles a lot but boy-oh-boy do I hate cutting it. A wet tilesaw sounds like the way to go. It does seem to grind/shape/drill very nicely if you're gentle with it, though. I don't really know why it's so hard to cut and so (relatively) easy to grind.

christof, I'll have to try your soaking method for micarta, that makes sense.

You guys all know this I'm sure, but please wear your respirator when cutting/grinding either one, and vacuum up the dust with your respirator still on. Horrible things can happen from breathing in teeny bits of glass and whatnot.
 
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Gday fella's,
Ive noticed during this discussion on numerous occaisons people complaining about how hard G10 is to cut, even with a bandsaw.
I use a bi-metal blade and it chews through G10 like butter and i get over 12 months out of one whether it be cutting steel or G10.

Cheers Bruce
 
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