If Jesus was a Jew

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J. Doyle

Dealer - Purveyor
I think myself and the rest who have responded in all these recent threads have been crystal clear in our thoughts and beliefs.

Have you tried studying the only authoritative voice on the subject....the Bible? Anything else, wright or wrong, is the thoughts and interjections of men.

The central issue, in all of these threads, is that you are trying to separate God from Jesus from the Holy Spirit from the Word...and it can't be done. Trying to do so introduces confusion, questions and chaos. Looking at them in their proper light, all are one and the same, and all becomes clear and congruent and harmonious.
 

J. Doyle

Dealer - Purveyor
So personal beliefs aside for the moment, which of the teachings of Jesus have been so misconstrued and by whom?



I believe that brings us back exactly to the orginal topic.
 

One

Banned
I want to hear what people think regardless of their religion. I want to know what any person thinks.

The question is "If Jesus was a Jew?", what did Yeshua (name meaning "savior") believe? What religion was he, if any? Do you want to follow the same religion or *belief system* as he did, or do you want to follow a religion that was created about him after the crucifixion? Were his teachings misunderstood? Were words put in his mouth? Was he made an example out of by the Jewish Hierarchy? Was he willing to be crucified for *what he believed*? Are there differences between religion and spirituality? Which came first? Which is more important? How do we balance the two?

What did Yeshua teach us about these things?.. Is it possible that Yeshua *never left us*, is alive and is still with us on earth, in the flesh and the Spirit, just waiting for the right timing?

I'm not looking for bible quotes or theological dogma, but to hear people speak from their own hearts, with their own words and understanding.
 
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J. Doyle

Dealer - Purveyor
I want to hear what people think regardless of their religion. I want to know what any person thinks.

The question is "If Jesus was a Jew?", what did Yeshua (name meaning "savior") believe? He believed that to be born again and have everlasting life, the way was through Him, through faith in Him and His death and resurrection on the cross so that sin and death might be defeated forever.What religion was he, if any? He wasn't any religion...He constantly pointed to Himself as center of all and denounced the 'religious' leaders of the day and their customs and traditions when they were used to try to save themselves, through works and practices of their own. Do you want to follow the same religion or *belief system* as he did, yes, very much so or do you want to follow a religion that was created about him after the crucifixion? Please explain more or give examples of what you are referring to. Were his teachings misunderstood? Very much so, by some in this very thread. Were words put in his mouth? How could we possibly know that if we don't use His Word as our baseline? Please give examples, if you have any, of how words were put in his mouth.Was he made an example out of by the Jewish Hierarchy? Of course. Was he willing to be crucified for *what he believed*? Absolutely.Are there differences between religion and spirituality? Most certainly.Which came first? "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God and the Word was God."Which is more important? Clearly loving God and having faith and fellowship in Christ Jesus is above all things. How do we balance the two? There is no need to try and balance worldly religion with Christianity and faith in Jesus.

What did Yeshua teach us about these things?.. It's all written down....every word of it.

I'm not looking for bible quotes or theological dogma, but to hear people speak from their own hearts, with their own words and understanding.
I answered your questions above in the words in red.

Now I have a few questions for you....first....again....:

So personal beliefs aside for the moment, which of the teachings of Jesus have been so misconstrued and by whom?



I believe that brings us back exactly to the orginal topic.

Secondly:
....what did Yeshua (name meaning "savior") believe?
You keep referring to Him as 'Yeshua' and state that the name means 'savior'. So you must believe in Him as Savior, correct? What is He saving from? And is He saving YOU from whatever it is?
 

J. Doyle

Dealer - Purveyor
I believe this fits in perfectly:

[h=1]John 10:22-30King James Version (KJV)[/h] [SUP]22 [/SUP]And it was at Jerusalem the feast of the dedication, and it was winter.
[SUP]23 [/SUP]And Jesus walked in the temple in Solomon's porch.
[SUP]24 [/SUP]Then came the Jews round about him, and said unto him, How long dost thou make us to doubt? If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly.
[SUP]25 [/SUP]Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.
[SUP]26 [/SUP]But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
[SUP]27 [/SUP]My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
[SUP]28 [/SUP]And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
[SUP]29 [/SUP]My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
[SUP]30 [/SUP]I and my Father are one.
 

One

Banned
I think he's trying to save me from myself... and any toxic beliefs, dogma, separatism, or toxic theology I might still hold. He's trying to clean me up from the inside. :)

I'm not always a perfect example of it, but I do what I can...

By toxic theology, I mean, "authoritarian fear based religions" or cults. I believe that's how modern cognitive behavioral therapist, and psychologists think of it too. Yeshua (savior) was onto it a long time ago...
 
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J. Doyle

Dealer - Purveyor
So cutting right to the chase....Christianity, or at least true Christianity that uses the Bible as it's foundation is a 'fear based religion', i.e...a cult? Because if you accept all of the Bible as truth, it does teach the concept of a place of eternal punishment for the wicked and ungodly.

It is commonly known that some cannot fathom a just and loving God sending anyone to a lost eternity. So if they ignore that part or just tell themselves that the Bible is 'flawed' they'll be okay and continue living however they want to.

That is your take in it after all, correct? I just want to be sure I understand where you're coming from.
 

One

Banned
No, hell is not really a "biblical concept", but you have to investigate it from all angles, (not just separatist religious dogma) to see it. You'll really have to dig at hell to find it, but only if you need it that bad... The newer better translations (mostly computer assisted, which is kind of spooky) are eliminating the word hell from bibles. Look into it.

Original sin is not a *biblical concept*. The Fall put simply, just means we are all going to have to work and strive for a living and it isn't going to be easy. People being born "totally depraved and/or evil" is not biblical.

The eternal fire of God is, *God's unquenchable redeeming and purifying LOVE*!
 
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J. Doyle

Dealer - Purveyor
No, hell is not really a "biblical concept", but you have to investigate it from all angles, (not just separatist religious dogma) to see it. You'll really have to dig at hell to find it. The newer better translations (mostly computer assisted, which is kind of spooky) are eliminating the word hell from bibles. Look into it.

Original sin is not a *biblical concept*. The Fall put simply, just means we are all going to have to work and strive for a living and it isn't going to be easy. People being born "totally depraved" is not biblical.

The eternal fire of God is, *God's unquenchable redeeming and purifying LOVE*!
This couldn't be further from the truth. I have, actually, researched the different words for Hell and though I don't speak Greek or Hebrew, I know the words that are used for it and where they are used and the surrounding context.

A place of eternal torment and punishment for the wicked, ungodly AND Satan and his angels is ABSOLUTELY a Biblical concept...but you don't believe the Bible Tai....and I can't help you there.

I'll stick to believing what I read in the Word of God and not what a computerized robot translator thinks should our shouldn't be in there. I couldn't care less about 'newer' and 'better'(HIGHLY subjective terms, by the way) translations that twist the Word of God to suit the guilty consciences of those composing them. I'm surprised you would even mention that actually. Certainly you didn't think that would hold any water with me? And why do you care? You don't believe the Bible....why would you try to justify your position with saying "Actually the newer, better translations are omitting the word 'hell' from the Bible." Laughable. Newer translations can try to omit the words but they can't omit the concept.


You speak as one that really doesn't have a great grasp of God's purposes for mankind as laid out in Scripture. You have little bits and pieces here and there, but in between it's completely saturated by a blend of man's ideas and vague notions via youtube videos and newspaper clippings mixed with your own personal ideas of what a utopian society should look like.

Have you ever REALLY read and truly studied the Bible? I would encourage you to look at the Old Testament and how God created man in His image but left self will untampered with so he wouldn't just create a race of auto-obedient robots. And how through sin and self-serving desires man was continually wicked. And so he reserved himself a remnant in the seed of Abraham and his descendants so that many would be brought into blessing. Then read how, through defiance and disobedience, in spite of God's loving chastisement, that chosen people was set aside, temporarily, so that Christ could be made manifest and build and call His body, His Church. Read in Galatians and Romans how Christ contrasts the two and read the differences between the law and grace. Read about how becoming the new man, the new creature, through Christ eliminates the terms 'Jew' and 'Gentile' and the differences between Israel and the Church and the promises to each and how through His purposes Christ will fulfill the prophecies and promises to each and bring both into their respective blessings.

It's all in there....sure those are the most very general topics in the way of unfolding the Word of God and there are a ton of details to fill in between those ideas. Doing so is a lifetime of study and prayer and devotion...way more than we could ever get into in typing a few responses in this forum but they are the central issues to all of these 'debates'.

It's a worthy study that I encourage you to undertake sometime.
 

John Wilson

Well-Known Member
I have gotten sucked into the black hole twice now. I mean no ill will toward anyone and I pray that you find the God you are looking for in the one true God. God gave us all free will, but he also gave us consequences if we ignore his will. That's a heavy price to pay if we trade his word for feel-good kumbaya.
 

One

Banned
I use the name Yeshua, because it's the proper name for "Jesus". Yeshua means *savior*. The name Jesus has no intrinsic meaning. Bibles don't have the name right. Look into it. It's a good example of how things got misconstrued. :)
 

John Wilson

Well-Known Member
Salvation has a completely different meaning to Jews.
It has a different meaning because they rejected Jesus, who came AS A JEW to give them salvation. He came as the sin offering. They rejected him. That's the WHOLE POINT.


Salvation to a Jew is also more of a group or community thing than a personal thing. It's about God's kingdom on earth. However, I believe both (personal and communal salvation) can or could have been achieved by following Yeshua's primary spiritual principles.
Jesus came to set us all straight. He told us what salvation is. He was clear about this. But you have to know scripture to know that. Jesus' principles are found in scripture. He said what he meant. It's right there. All anyone has to do is read it.


Jews don't believe in original sin, eternal damnation, the trinity, human blood sacrifice etc.
Jews do believe in original sin, or else the story of Adam and Eve would not exist. It's their book. The Law of Moses addresses it in tedious detail. The Hebrews were hard hearted as well as hard headed and God left them in the desert for forty years and let an entire generation die out because they weren't willing to follow. Even Moses was not allowed to enter the promised land.

Jesus became the sacrifice and the apostles recoiled in horror at the thought because they didn't understand. He was fulfilling the Law. Upon his sacrifice there was no need for any more animal sacrifice. He became the Lamb of God. Of course Jews don't understand this, because they rejected Christ and they don't have the New Testament.




Okay. I said I'm done and I'm done.
 

One

Banned
To the best of my knowledge and understanding, Yeshua ben Yosef is the proper name. However, I doubt it matters to him what name we use as long as we get the message right... :)

... but, how did the name Yeshua get replaced by Jesus? If you are curious, you should look into it.
 
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J. Doyle

Dealer - Purveyor
The name Jesus actually does exist in the Bible....that is, if you believe the Bible is true. It is the Greek form of the Hebrew 'Jehoshua' which means 'Jehovah is Savior'. So Jesus is actually "Jehovah the Savior".

'Jehovah' is one of the names taken by God and is derived from the word 'havah' which means 'to exist' and is translated further as 'who is, who was and is to come'

So Jesus is also God.

Matthew 1:21King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]21 [/SUP]And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Jesus: for he shall save his people from their sins.


Additionally, to be signified 'Immanuel' or 'Emmanual' which is translated as 'God with us'.

Matthew 1:23King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]23 [/SUP]Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.


Which agrees perfectly with this Old Testament prophecy:

Isaiah 9:6King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]6 [/SUP]For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.


So in summary, the New Testament opens immediately with the fulfillment of the prophecy of Isaiah and immediately asserts the Deity of Jesus, who, as God, was made human to dwell among us.

Hmmmm......imagine that. :)

But probably some computer generated translator is soon going to remove the word 'Jesus' from the Bible.
 
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One

Banned
Yeshua taught in Aramaic, therefore, that's the proper name. It's actually a bit more complicated than that, but you'll have to dig at it. Try and find the correct pronunciation too. That gets confusing also.

The Hebrew and Aramaic just don't translate well into English. Words have to be added and taken away. Bibles are as much *interpretations* as they are translations. Linguistically, it's a very big mess.

If you only look at these things (and there are many), from inside fundamental Christian doctrine and dogma, you probably won't find them. You have to look outside too and keep an opened mind. Try and hear everyone's voice, listen to people... historians, scientists, psychologists, other religions, atheists, secular society, philosophers etc.. Then draw your own conclusions. Nearly everyone you meet will have an opinion.

I think one big problem is that we don't trust what the Spirit is telling us from the inside and always have the urge to verify and confirm things from external sources. For me, this has been a major problem, but I don't think I'm really that different than anyone else. If anything, I need to rely on what the Spirit is speaking to my heart, and try my best to live it out. I'm not always as successful as I hoped I'd be, but I'm trying.

I know it's a bit of a paradox.

Life is good!
 
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I think some confusion comes from the Jewish tradition that, if you are born to Jewish parents you are considered Jewish, unless you convert to another religion. It's similar to Catholicism in that respect.

Any thoughts?[/QUOTE

Sure, lots of thoughts, most of them having to do with someone with no personal experience trying to pass themself off as an expert on things that they do not understand!

Perhaps it is time to remind ourselves of that great quote from President Abraham Lincoln "You can not believe everything that you read on the internet!"

Even if your understanding of the Jewish religion is no deeper than "Fiddler on the Roof" you will know that they are not quick to accept anyone into the "family"... according to their texts there is a process and to get fully in should take multiple generations.

Even if your understanding of the Jewish religion is no deeper than "Robin Hood Men in Tights" you will know that there are some ... uhh... physical requirements for a man to join the Jewish covenant. Saying you believe something like they do is not enough.

There are at least 3 types of Jews in the world today. The majority I have met are not-religious Jews... they are actually practicing atheists. They feel they are Jewish because they family traces back to Abraham through Isaac. They are not going to believe you are Jewish because you have similar beliefs about God.

On the other end are the ultra-orthodox Jews.... and they are not going to accept you. Ever. Get over it, you are not one of them.

Sorry Goo... once again you do not get to play Webster & define the terms.

God Bless,

OH & by the way, Yes, Jesus could trace all 3 (yes, as near as we understand it 3) of His human lines back to Abraham, with the appropriate gaps for those who were not Jewish by birth.
And YES, Jesus was Jewish by belief making it very clear that He had no intentions of ever editing the Abrahamic or Mosaic Covenants... and of course He was the fulfillment of the Davidic Covenant.
The people who He was hardest on were the ones who claimed to be Jewish but didn't know or observe the things they claimed to believe.
 
I think one big problem is that we don't trust what the Spirit is telling us from the inside and always have the urge to verify and confirm things from external sources. For me, this has been a major problem, but I don't think I'm really that different than anyone else. If anything, I need to rely on what the Spirit is speaking to my heart, and try my best to live it out. I'm not always as successful as I hoped I'd be, but I'm trying.
!

Nah, the big problem is that people have so little actual experience & knowledge with the living God that they can not tell the voice of the Spirit from happy thoughts or indigestion. They think that because they have thought of something it must be from God. Anything stronger then they, anything that can put words into their brains MUST be God.... which is nonsense. People come up with some of the dumbest things and blame them on God.

Hearing & identifying the voice of God from all the other voices in ones head is the work of a life time. This is not something to be put on the same level as knowing Sunday's football scores. It is the journey of a lifetime and the more a person learns to stop & listen, the more they will realize how poor they are at this. If you think getting good at moving steel with fire & hammer is hard, identifying the voice of God from the stormy voices of this world is immeasurably more challenging. It almost can not be done in the American life with TV's blaring, radios filling silence, etc. The one who wants to hear from God MUST learn to shut off the world.

The arrogance of American thinking on this is astounding. We are NOT all equal at listening to God. This is not a 5 year old soccer game where everyone gets a trophy. Do not think that you are "really no different than anyone else". There are people who have invested close to 100 years forsaking EVERYTHING else in order to be able to be that close to God. I have only been walking with Him for @37 years now. I've been a preacher for close to 20 now. It is only in the last 5 I have identified how much I am running off of conscience instead of listening.

Learn to KNOW the Spirit's voice first. Then worry about what He has to say today.

God Bless,
 

One

Banned
All I said was anyone can become a Jew regardless of bloodlines, race, and ethnicity. I didn't say it's an easy process, which it isn't. I don't consider myself Jewish just because I believe many of the same things they do. I don't plan on becoming a full fledged Jew,

I agree with most of what you are saying, but will just turn it around and point it back at you. Were you talking to me or to yourself?

It's funny how so many people can see their own flaws in others, but not in themselves.

When you judge others, it is not them that you judge, you judge yourself.

Let me make it clear that I am not judging anyone. I am talking about toxic beliefs, toxic theologies, dogma etc., not people. Judging people who hold toxic beliefs would be victimizing the victims. I believe in all people and consider myself one too... I don't think anyone needs to apologize for that.
 
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J. Doyle

Dealer - Purveyor
I'll point out that there is a difference between judging someone and having spiritual discernment. The Bible gives plenty of warnings to believers about this. Here is just one example:

Matthew 7:15-20King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]15 [/SUP]Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
[SUP]16 [/SUP]Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
[SUP]17 [/SUP]Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
[SUP]18 [/SUP]A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
[SUP]19 [/SUP]Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
[SUP]20 [/SUP]Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

The Lord gave us plenty of passages in scripture to warn us against false teachers with false doctrines. He taught in many places about having spiritual discernment and it's important.

Here's the thing Tai..this is the CHRISTIAN forum. I'm not in charge of why there is a Christian forum and not a forum for Universalism or Judaism or any other religion. But this Christian forum is here and many of us use it to discuss and share our faith and our beliefs in Christ and HIS WORD.

When someone comes in to this forum and wants to deny, denounce and take away the authority and Deity of Jesus Christ and His Word, people get a little defensive, and rightly so. This is the place for Christians to share their beliefs and discuss their faith. There is a huge difference between like minded Christians discussing and debating various passages of the Bible, interpretations and aspects of the Christian faith and what you do in here.

Not all Christians agree on everything but the VAST majority share the same basic beliefs and principles and may on occasion debate the smaller points. And ALL of them that I've ever seen acknowledge the Bible as God's living Word, whole and complete and accurate and ALL acknowledge and accept the Deity of Jesus.

You, on the other hand, tear away, undermine and flat out ignore the most important foundations of Christianity and faith in Jesus. You strip Jesus of His deity, you deny and denounce the Word of God and you obviously don't share the same Christian faith that most of us here do.

Not one person that posts in this forum is ever seen 'Bible thumping' or cramming our beliefs down someone's throat in any of the other areas of the forum. We have this place here to discuss our beliefs in peace and share our faith. Every thread you participate in turns into a theological debate that leaves most of the rest of us trying to justify and support or defend our faith to someone who seems dead set on tearing it apart at every turn.

It seems to me that you get more of a kick out of stirring trouble and inciting controversy than you do sharing the joy and love of your god. There must be other discussion forums out there where your beliefs are more in line with other members and wouldn't stir up so much debate. Why don't you seek out some of those and have these discussions there? Certainly you have better things to do with your time than stir up arguments here, don't you?
 

One

Banned
O.K. John, tell me if I'm correct. Are you are saying that this forum is strictly for *Christian fundamentalists*, other types of Christians and outsiders are not welcome to discuss Christianity here? If that's it and that's how the rest of the board members feel, I don't think this forum should even be here.
 
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