If Jesus was a Jew

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First we need to understand that being Jewish does not represent a race, ethnicity or separate blood line. It is a very old *religious movement*. Anyone can become a full-fledged Jew, regardless of bloodlines etc. Second, if Yeshua (Jesus) was in fact a Jew, he would have held certain common beliefs with other Jews based on the old testament.

This site explains some common basic Jewish beliefs fairly well. It is not the end all of end alls, not the greatest, but gives you an idea.

http://whatjewsbelieve.org/index.html

... The big question is,… if Yeshua ben Yosef was a Jew, how did his Jewish message and teachings get so misconstrued?
 

One

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or perhaps ... I guess the other big question is, if he wasn't a Jew,... then what religion was he, if any?
 
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One

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I think some confusion comes from the Jewish tradition that, if you are born to Jewish parents you are considered Jewish, unless you convert to another religion. It's similar to Catholicism in that respect.

Any thoughts?
 

Drew Riley

Well-Known Member
I'm not sure there is (or has been) much of a question that Jesus was/is Jewish. He was born into a Jewish family, and thus was Jewish by bloodline, but scripture also lays out very clearly that he observed Jewish customs and laws as well, basing even much of his ministry around such things as their festivals and customs. In fact, as a boy, when his parents found him in the temple, even the must studied of the teachers were amazed at his understanding. In other words, Jesus was no slouch! (Luke 2 lays out his Jewishness very well.)

As for the misconstruing of Judaism, the laws of Moses, and so forth, that was happening well before Jesus was incarnated (and has continued long after) hence much of the tension between Jesus and the Pharisees, Sadducees, etc... He continually pointed out their misunderstandings and shortcomings when it came to things such as following the law and being obedient to God. Read Matthew 23 for a prime example of this.

Now, as for "religion", I think that perhaps that was the crux of the whole problem. Jesus was the most "anti-religious" person to walk the earth, and continually pointed towards relationship, rather than religion, and love rather than law.
 

One

Banned
I agree 100% with your conclusion. :)

Once we put church doctrines and dogma above God, the truth is impossible to see.

I think Yeshua taught *personal spiritual growth*, above all else...
 
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Calvin Robinson

Moderator Christian Forum
I agree 100% with your conclusion. :)

Once we put church doctrines and dogma above God, the truth is impossible to see.

I think Yeshua taught *personal spiritual growth*, above all else...
Wrong again Tai, Jesus Christ taught salvation by grace ,through faith in Him above all else.
I think bible ignorance is the greatest sin a true believer can commit and it's so easy to overcome,read the Bible, study the Bible, not just now and then but daily,every day,year in and year out, make a lifelong pursuit of it.
 

One

Banned
Faith in Yeshua means faith in his spiritual teachings and guidance, which could only have been Jewish in nature (see the link in the OP), if he was a Jew. Also, when Yeshua refers to the scriptures he is talking about the old testament manuscripts that were available at that time. The new testament didn't exist yet.
 

One

Banned
If Yeshua had converted to a religion other than Judaism, which Christian fundamentalist seem to be suggesting,... that would have excluded or disqualified him from being the Jewish Messiah, even if he was qualified in every other way.
 

John Wilson

Well-Known Member
I have never once heard any Christian, fundamentalist or otherwise, claim any such thing. Unless I'm completely misunderstanding what you mean. Had Christ not been a Jew, what would he have been? This is where Universalism falls on its face. "I came not to abolish the Law, but to fulfill the Law." The Law is Jewish by definition.

Jesus, who is God, transcends religion. He is the Word. His Word is truth.

Having said that, Jesus cannot be separated from his Jewishness. It is the very foundation, the premise, through which Christ presented himself. The story of Genesis and the fall of man is actually the story of the promise of redemption through the Messiah, a new Adam, who will be sent. Genesis foretells Jesus, as does the entire underlying theme of every book in the Old Testament. The Hebrew story is the story of God revealing himself to man through the Jews and his promise of ultimate salvation. Jesus is the culmination of everything, and it requires a real understanding of the Hebrew story and the promises God made to them to truly "get it." The Old Testament was thousands of years of God paving the way for Christ so that people would be ready for him when he came. It was the proof waiting for the Man. A lot of people didn't get it, and still don't.

Can you be saved without knowing the relationship of Judaism to Christ? Sure. Salvation is grace from God. But Salvation is where our relationship to God starts, not ends. Peter and Paul fought bitterly over this question. Peter and others thought to follow Christ you had to first become a Jew. Paul disagreed. Peter eventually got it. But even Paul understood that salvation came to the Gentiles only because Jesus came to the Jews first. While we, who were not given the Law, can be saved- our salvation comes from Christ who came as a Jew to the Jews. In fact, had the Jews not rejected Christ then Peter would have been correct. We would have had to become Jews to follow Christ. This is clearly pointed out in scripture.
 

One

Banned
Salvation has a completely different meaning to Jews. It is about the here and now, as opposed to a pie in the sky heaven somewhere in the future. Salvation to a Jew is also more of a group or community thing than a personal thing. It's about God's kingdom on earth. However, I believe both (personal and communal salvation) can or could have been achieved by following Yeshua's primary spiritual principles.

Jews don't believe in original sin, eternal damnation, the trinity, human blood sacrifice etc.

... Something went terribly wrong after Yeshua's crucifixion.
 
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J. Doyle

Dealer - Purveyor
In regards to the original post here, your first two posts....there are already issues that make attempting to have a rational conversation difficult going forward.

First, to answer any questions about the life or teachings of Jesus, one is forced to refer to the only source with any authority to shed light on the subject...the Bible. But going from your own comments in past threads, up to and including very recent ones here in this subforum, you don't believe the Bible and don't need the Bible. You've discounted the New Testament entirely as written by the church and tampered with to suit church doctrines and you've said the Bible doesn't exist as it was just compiled from a bunch of old man made texts....so basically putting the Old Testament in the same boat as the New Testament.

Correct me if I'm mistaken, but.....You've denied that the Bible is God's Holy Word and divinely inspired. You've denied that Jesus IS God. You've denied the fact of personal sin and the need for the saving grace of Jesus....again going from YOUR own words in past threads.

My point and why these things are relevant is, how do you expect this conversation to move forward in a positive direction? As soon as anyone puts up Scripture verses (the only authoritative answers to some of your questions in existence) you comment about the inaccuracy of the Bible.

You've said that you're not Jewish but your viewpoints and beliefs seem to line up hand in hand with theirs...again, correct me if I'm wrong.

From the link, Jews DON'T believe:
That Jesus IS the Messiah.
That anyone can die for the sins of another.
That anyone is born with sin.
God became human.
A blood sacrifice is necessary to save from Sin

Those few things alone stand in stark contrast to the Bible....even the Old Testament. And certainly against the teachings of Jesus (pulled from the Bible, again...the only authority on the subject) The fact is, the OT points to not only the manifestation of Jesus Christ in the NT, but His existence from the foundations of time AND His redeeming and atoning work on the cross. This is done in so many places that it would be impossible to list them all here.

It would be nice if we had a little more information about your original topic. What teachings and beliefs did Jesus have that have been so 'misconstrued'? And where and how are the fundamental Christians claiming that Christ had converted to another religion?

Jesus was absolutely anti-religion. Christianity is about the person of Christ and His redeeming work. The difference between Christianity and religion is that Christianity came from God/Jesus manifested in Him being made flesh to save the world from sin. Religion, in any form or any title you want to hang on it is made by man.

The question here is the difference between the law and grace. Sin is the transgression of the law. The Bible says that if anyone is guilty of breaking any part of the law, they were guilty of breaking all of it. The wages of sin is death...physical, spiritual and moral. Eternal death. Hence the saving Grace of Christ has its occasion. Grace saves from sin and death through faith in Jesus Christ as the Savior. And through Grace, by faith in Him, sin has no more power over man. No man can uphold the law, save one Person....the righteous Jesus. This fact makes Grace necessary.

This also points hard to the fact that Jesus IS God. No mere human sacrifice would be sufficient because there is none blameless, without blemish. But Christ is the Lamb of God..the perfect, spot free, unblemished sacrifice of God.

2 Corinthians 5:21New King James Version (NKJV)

[SUP]21 [/SUP]For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

The Jews demanded the law, but were unable to uphold the law as all are guilty of transgression of the law.


John 1:17New King James Version (NKJV)

[SUP]17 [/SUP]For the law was given through Moses, but grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.


Jesus didn't convert to or teach any religion. And he didn't subscribe to the Jewish beliefs and customs outlined above. He was, however, able to upholdthe law and be found righteous. He frustrated and confounded the religious leaders of the day time after time with his perfect answers to their ensnaring questions. He pointed always towards Himself as the Light of the World, the Lamb of God, the Messiah, yet was blameless in the law at the same time. His answers and statements convicted the hearts until they ultimately gave in to stubbornness, defiance, selfishness and tradition and put Him to death, with even Pilate saying he could find no fault in Him.
 
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J. Doyle

Dealer - Purveyor
I have never once heard any Christian, fundamentalist or otherwise, claim any such thing. Unless I'm completely misunderstanding what you mean. Had Christ not been a Jew, what would he have been? This is where Universalism falls on its face. "I came not to abolish the Law, but to fulfill the Law." The Law is Jewish by definition.

Jesus, who is God, transcends religion. He is the Word. His Word is truth.

Having said that, Jesus cannot be separated from his Jewishness. It is the very foundation, the premise, through which Christ presented himself. The story of Genesis and the fall of man is actually the story of the promise of redemption through the Messiah, a new Adam, who will be sent. Genesis foretells Jesus, as does the entire underlying theme of every book in the Old Testament. The Hebrew story is the story of God revealing himself to man through the Jews and his promise of ultimate salvation. Jesus is the culmination of everything, and it requires a real understanding of the Hebrew story and the promises God made to them to truly "get it." The Old Testament was thousands of years of God paving the way for Christ so that people would be ready for him when he came. It was the proof waiting for the Man. A lot of people didn't get it, and still don't.

Can you be saved without knowing the relationship of Judaism to Christ? Sure. Salvation is grace from God. But Salvation is where our relationship to God starts, not ends. Peter and Paul fought bitterly over this question. Peter and others thought to follow Christ you had to first become a Jew. Paul disagreed. Peter eventually got it. But even Paul understood that salvation came to the Gentiles only because Jesus came to the Jews first. While we, who were not given the Law, can be saved- our salvation comes from Christ who came as a Jew to the Jews. In fact, had the Jews not rejected Christ then Peter would have been correct. We would have had to become Jews to follow Christ. This is clearly pointed out in scripture.
Excellent post John.
 

J. Doyle

Dealer - Purveyor
...
Jews don't believe in original sin, eternal damnation, the trinity, human blood sacrifice etc.

...
Which is unfortunate because each of those things are such clearly laid out foundations of the message of the Bible. Even the Old Testament has an abundance of teachings on these concepts.
 
Everyone is entitled to their opinion but here is what I believe about the Bible, OT & NT. If God had the ability & power to speak this world into existence then he has the power & ability to insure that what is in the Bible (his living word) is what he wants to be there. EVERY SINGLE WORD.
 

One

Banned
I'm not going to try and address each of your questions in a single post or hash through the scriptures blow by blow. It would be impractical for me as it would be very complicated, wordy and just not that much fun. However, as a follower of Yeshua, I guess I should expect some of the same things that happened to him to happen to me,... but to a lesser degree. I don't think a bible is completely useless, if exegesis is employed rather than eisegesis. Eisegesis means reading things into the text rather than extracting the truth from it. If extracting the truth, exegesis, appears as cherry picking, so be it. If it is read only through the lens of church dogma and doctrine, it is eisegesis, not exegesis. I believe Yeshua also warned us not to give too much trust to the scribes, from whom our manuscripts come through. Rather, I believe he taught that the truth would be confirmed by the indwelling Holy Spirit, not a bible.
 

J. Doyle

Dealer - Purveyor
[h=1]2 Timothy 3:16-17King James Version (KJV)[/h] [SUP]16 [/SUP]All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
[SUP]17 [/SUP]That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.


[h=1]2 Peter 1:20-21King James Version (KJV)[/h] [SUP]20 [/SUP]Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
[SUP]21 [/SUP]For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.
 

One

Banned
John, let's just cool off a little and think about it. :)

As a student of Yeshua, *I also hate religion*, but learn as much as I can about it. Joining an existing one or starting a new one, just aren't my thing... :)

When it comes down to, *damned if I do and damned if I don't*, I'm out... It's too stressful for me and way too dogmatic. :)
 
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J. Doyle

Dealer - Purveyor
I have nothing to cool off from Tai. I'm not irritated, hot, getting upset or anything of the sort.

I'm just responding to your topic.

You actually haven't made it clear what your 'thing' is exactly.

What were your expectations of this thread? What teachings of Jesus have been misconstrued? And by whom? What were you trying to learn here?
Are you Jewish? Are you a voice for the Jews? Are you speaking on their behalf? What are YOUR thoughts on the link YOU posted?

You haven't addressed any of those things.....in YOUR own topic. So again...what are you trying to learn with this thread and what did you expect?
 

J. Doyle

Dealer - Purveyor
Honestly, I have a lot easier time understanding the 'all or nothing' ends of this spectrum than understanding a mindset that picks and chooses the parts one wishes to believe.

It's pretty simple really....Either Jesus was who He said He was, or He wasn't. And His Word is HIS word and it's complete and authoritative, or the whole entire thing is a fairy tale.

The picking and choosing what parts you believe and throwing away the rest is quite notable. In my experiences, more often than not, people do that out of conviction by the Holy Spirit. And sometimes they know they're convicted and give in to the human nature, the nature of the flesh, because it's a LOT easier to give in to the old nature than to resist it. And some don't even know yet that it's conviction of the Holy Spirit they're feeling.

Clearly Jesus was aware of the issue and felt that 'all or nothing' was preferable to 'some':

[h=1]Revelation 3:14-19King James Version (KJV)[/h] [SUP]14 [/SUP]And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;
[SUP]15 [/SUP]I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.
[SUP]16 [/SUP]So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.
[SUP]17 [/SUP]Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:
[SUP]18 [/SUP]I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.
[SUP]19 [/SUP]As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.



It is totally up to you what you believe...but don't expect to come into a Christian discussion forum and try to take away the Deity of Jesus and the authority of His word and expect no one is going to defend it.
 

One

Banned
I don't know John, I asked the board first. I want to hear what you think...

I have studied lots of theories from as many angles as I could find (within certain reason), and have some theories of my own. I'm just not sure I'm ready to share them with the board yet. I have a fertile imagination, so no telling. I'm trying to make conversation and learn more about the individual beliefs and practices of people reading this.
 
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