Certified Rockwell C sample...

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KNIFE MAKER
So my Rockwell tester is very consistent....and seems to match what I shot for in HT/Tempering...problem is it never came with a certified test piece. I would like to provide a hardness test and sharpness test when I start selling....but I cannot do that on an un-calibrated machine no matter how consistent.

So I check on McMaster-Carr...$75.00!!! For a 1 1/2" x 2 1/2" x 1/4 thick certified sample. If I order it at 60RC it will be between 55-65 Rockwell on the C scale...but it will be certified for exactly where it's at on the C scale...could come in at 61.5 or 57 even....but $75???

Oh yeah...my Rockwell tester is an old PHASE II stock no. 900-330...old and analog and weighs 170 lbs...perfect for knife making. I'll check with them on Monday before buying from McMasters...rockwell sample.png
 
I'd call MSC and ask them what the deal is with their SPI test blocks. They list out at 38.21 but they say there is a range of hardness. Or ask if they sell replacement sets for their "import" hardness tester.
 
The range of hardness is fine as long as they cert the actual hardness...That's all McMaster is doing...for $75 lol!

Thanks for the MSC idea!
 
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The rockwell tester that we got from dad's estate is really new...I'm the only one that has used it, and only for knifemaking...I had no idea the cost! Figured that since it was older chinese (nicely made though) it was perhaps about $300-400...MSC is selling the exact version for just over $1,600...wow. Glad to have something I can't afford right now...lol!!
 
$75 is about as cheap as it gets for a new and useable test block. Look at the certs for it and see what the tolerances are. It can have a huge range on cheaper blocks, yours shows +/- 5 points! That is a huge variation and is why you are only paying $75. if you drop the big bucks can get them down to +/-.5.

I do occasional checking and calibration on my expensive blocks, but for everyday checking I make up O-1 blocks of my own that I double check on other testers calibrated similar to my own.

Be happy it is just Rockwell, Tukon (Knoop) test block sets will run you around $600-$700.
 
I may be reading it wrong...but I think the five point spread is as close as they cert to the target hardness....with the actual hardness being inscribed on the block...else the sample would be pretty worthless? 55-65 RC would still allow me to accurately calibrate the tester if I have the real number of the block?

Every blade I have tested without the cert block has been 59.5-61.0.....so when guys ask how hard they are I say... " about sixty rockwell on the C scale..." I do think I am real close to that...
 
"CERTIFIED"
You have no idea of what you are asking. I'm a journeyman machinist in a medical implement company. Certified is a bad word. Ya know,,, if you are off 1 or 2 points that's not bad. Order that test block for $75 bucks. You would have to have it calibrated once a year to maintain your certification. $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
That means paying a tech to come to your shop and calibrate it. Really. You don't want to do that.
 
I actually called to get an estimate on getting my tester calibrated, and it was about 3 times the cost of a new machine.
 
I actually called to get an estimate on getting my tester calibrated, and it was about 3 times the cost of a new machine.

lol,,,,,
Yeah so! It's all good. Every piece of test equipment I touch has a calibration sticker on it. You don't even want to go there. I have spent half my manufacturing career machining aerospace and the other half medical. Stickers on everything! Smile be happy! Spend $75 bucks and call it good. Or just call it good!!!!!!!!!! :cool:
 
"CERTIFIED"
You have no idea of what you are asking. I'm a journeyman machinist in a medical implement company. Certified is a bad word. Ya know,,, if you are off 1 or 2 points that's not bad. Order that test block for $75 bucks. You would have to have it calibrated once a year to maintain your certification. $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
That means paying a tech to come to your shop and calibrate it. Really. You don't want to do that.

This is not even close to what I am talking about...and yes...i do have an idea of what I am asking...

You can calibrate your own equipment for non-aerospace non-medical (non-regulated industries) work...'bout every company does it.(anytime you check a mic on a gage block this is what you are doing)

I'm under no legal obligation to professionally calibrate equipment I use to offer a company "certificate" of hardness. My knives are not being used in a capacity such as a medical instrument or a component on a sattelite. It is merely a matter of interest to the end user "how hard/tough is this blade" and a matter of "are my heat treat and temper recipes actually giving me what I want".

The minute you have calibrated your machine using a certified test coupon you are more than good for the trade we are in. A rockwell tester is a very basic machine...the certified test piece will do the trick....for a couple years most likely...until the divots on the one side make it hard to find a fresh spot to test on...lol.

I simply want to use a certified test piece to calibrate my own tester so I am not guessing where I am really at.
 
Since you're wanting a "certified" test block $75 isn't a bad price at all. To save the certified test block, calibrate your tester to read correctly, then make your own test blocks from a lathe tool bit and use that for day to day checks saving the certified test block for the once/yr checks. No point in using the certified test block for day to day checks.
 
Since you're wanting a "certified" test block $75 isn't a bad price at all. To save the certified test block, calibrate your tester to read correctly, then make your own test blocks from a lathe tool bit and use that for day to day checks saving the certified test block for the once/yr checks. No point in using the certified test block for day to day checks.
Yeah...after hearing Kevin C. say that a knoop test block could be $600-700 I should stop whining about price...lol!

Great idea!... I can dial in the machine...then test a few blade blanks and scribe the number on them and use them as the text samples. Kind of what kevin Z was recommending with peters. That would allow me to put the certified one away and only use it when I need to make new samples for the shop floor. All my test pieces would be 2nd gen from the fancy store bought sample...and that one should then last years n years...
 
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Ames wants $105.00 for this test block, but it is a bit more accurate than what you are describing from McMaster.
I would say that + or - 5 is not much of a calibration block. None of this stuff is cheap. I have a portable Ames tester
and the plastic dial face crystal has a crack, I think they wanted $150.00 for the crystal.
 
Okay...this is how I think it goes....you order your block around the hardness you are testing at...you get it in a plus or minus 5 point deviation of the zone you want and they have engraved the actual number on the side. Just like yours...

So if I order a "60" it will be between 55-65 and will have the exact number engraved on it...otherwise it would be worthless...

Can I get anyone knowledgeable enough to verify this over the phone? No...

I have the guy at McMaster going to open a box right now to see if this is how they are done...lol. not ordering till I am sure....

yours is +/- half a point....perfect for what I am doing.
 
We don’t need our testers certified, test block yes, testers no. Ted, I applaud your desire to want some verifiable standards by which to gauge your work. You would not believe the number of folks to whom I have to point out that a test done on anything less than a polished, flat and parallel surface is all but worthless. And almost every HRC test I see consists of only one reading. Accurate Rockwell is an average, I prefer at least 5 and this is why my numbers will include decimal points despite most Rc dials being whole number increments. And you are one of the precious few that I have ever seen inquire about test blocks to see if the machine is even reading correctly, and it does take due diligence to keep them reading correctly. With proper care I mange to keep mine within 1 point, and it makes my teeth itch when it swings more than .5.

Here are just a few things people should probably ask if they want their HRC test to mean anything at all-

Where do you keep your tester? Is it in a clean, dry, environment and on a stable base? Large temperature swings are awful for HRC testing. The dash pot oil is very sensitive to temperature and you want that major load applied in a 4-8 second window, outside of that and your numbers will start to wander. There is an adjuster for the hydraulics on the top of the dash pot.

Is your elevator screw well protected? Believe it or not that telescoping sleeve around your elevator screw is one of the most critical parts of that tester. Dirt, dust or rust on those screw threads will render your numbers useless. Even the oil that is supposed to be on those threads has to be dealt with. Before starting a series of tests, I always slip a test block into the tester and apply the major load for about a minute and a half to squeeze any interference out of the threads, give it a try and you will be amazed at the difference it makes in the first few tests! If you ever hear any microscopic crunchy noises when you apply the major load, throw the test out, the anvil needs to be as clean as a test block.

Precision Vs. accuracy- HRC numbers are just like sighting in a rifle, if you have a real tight grouping low and to the left, all you have to do is adjust windage and elevation and you can get a bullseye. But if your pattern is scattered all over, you have real trouble, and may need a new tester since, as has been mentioned, having it repaired can cost more than finding a good used unit.

If the numbers are all over the map- check your penetrator- examine the test marks under magnification, are they perfectly round and uniform? If not, you may be able to fix things by just buying a new penetrator. Much cheaper! And always protect that penetrator. Diamonds are brittle things. Never bump it, and protect it with your finger whenever changing anvils.

I am highly suspicious of tests done on surfaces with less than a 400X finish. Blades hanging way off to one side of the anvil can skew the tests. When somebody hands me a blade with a hamon, or any blade made from 10xx series steel that is more than 3/16” thick, and tells me its Rockwell, I just smile and say “well isn’t that nice”. Now, before the debate begins, just take some time to really think about that situation, from all angles, and you may see what I mean.

These are just a few points as to why Rockwell numbers can be a very handy tool in dialing in your heat treatment, but is often given far more weight than it can actually carry on a number of levels.
 
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Okay...this is how I think it goes....you order your block around the hardness you are testing at...you get it in a plus or minus 5 point deviation of the zone you want and they have engraved the actual number on the side. Just like yours...

So if I order a "60" it will be between 55-65 and will have the exact number engraved on it...otherwise it would be worthless...

Can I get anyone knowledgeable enough to verify this over the phone? No...

I have the guy at McMaster going to open a box right now to see if this is how they are done...lol. not ordering till I am sure....

yours is +/- half a point....perfect for what I am doing.

Ted, I would like to be able to help, but I have never bought one of these blocks, I have been tempted, but never have. Most of my blocks were gifts from industrial clients that I did consulting for, and are of the +/- .5 variety. Sometimes you can find good ones used that still have a lot of life in them. If you do this, these are things to look for-

You don't want them so covered in dimples that you can't get a clean reading- REMEMBER, for a test to be good it has to be around two* dimple diameters away from any other dimple. On the flip side of this, don't be alarmed if you have 5-10 dimples, even on a brand new one, remember that good numbers are an average and they had to do it to certify the block. In fact, beware of a block with NO dimples, it could have been resurfaced, which is a huge NONO! Certification testing is normally done in a proper star pattern or at five points ( one at each corner and the center). Speaking of the flip side, there should only be dimples on one side, blocks are only certified for one face and testing on the bottom side can render the bock worthless.
Look for large scratches or rust, for the obvious reasons.

Brands to look for are Mitutoyo (very $$$), Wilson (an industry standard) and Rockwell of course. I think Clark may have made some as well. I have had good luck with Starr, but some can deviate a little wider.

*I'm being generous, ASTM recommends 3-4 diameters.
 
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My test block is from Westport. Theirs is maybe $82 I think? They tell you +/- 5 points when you order it. Then it is etched on the side of the block with the actual hardness and a range of +/- 0.5 points. They do send you a certification sheet with all their readings on it.

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Oh, it is also worth mentioning the difference between anvils. Have any of you ever seen, or even have that funny little post anvil (about 1/4" or 5/6" diameter) and wondered about it? That is a good calibration anvil. Most testing is done on the wider table anvil, but that little post provides a smaller point of contact which can eliminate any deviation from perfectly flat on the test block. Sort of like the disappointing numbers you get from testing a blade with a slight warp in it from the wrong side, but on a much more neurotically OCD level.
 
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