Budgets and priorities

A

Absinthe

Well-Known Member
Okay, in a perfect world, I would love to have a milling machine, and lathe, and big belt grinder, and vertical metal cutting bandsaw, or waterjet :) But, I am living in reality. The question is a matter of priorities, biggest bang for the buck, and which comes first.

1. Cutting out liners, bolsters, and annealed blade and spring parts:
I picked up some small hack saw blades, I assume they will fit on my coping saw frame. I don't think this is how I want to cut curvy things out, but I will give it a try. I keep hearing about how great the portable band saws are, but I wonder if I can use anything other than a 1/2" blade in them? Can they cut curves, or might I be just as well off with a chop saw, or some extra cut-off blades for my angle grinder. I still haven't completely written off putting a bi-metal blade in my Craftsman 14" band saw and running it on its "slower" setting. Nor have I been convinced that my jigsaw with a metal cutting blade woundn't be a good option.

2. Grinding, sanding,polishing:
Right now I have 2 1x30 belt grinders (one of them should have a disk, but the previous owner converted it to use some buffing pads.), and a 4x36 with disk. In addition to that I also have an OSS, a drill driven 2" sanding and sharpening thingie, and a hand held belt sander. I have an 8" and 6" bench grinder, but the 8 is tied up using CBN wheels as a dedicated sharpener for my turning tools. The 6" however, has a wire wheel, and I am about to swap out the cracked stone for a buffing pad.

3. I own a decently sized drill press. The previous owner claimed that he used it mostly for milling. Unfortunately, it doesn't use a draw bar, and whatever he did to be able to mill with it, I am unable to reproduce since I replaced the broken chuck. I assume he had done something to glue the spindle in place because it was a pain in the anatomy to remove. I have an el cheapo x-y table but the DP will drop the chuck if I even think about going sideways. I have files, and am not afraid to use them.

So this is my starting point. Ideas?
 
You can run a line of holes with your drill press for the knife pattern and cut it out with a hack saw, I did it for years. those 1 x 30s are belt "sanders" not belt "grinders". they'll do something but it's going to be frustrating, I know there's folks out there using them but I just don't see it myself.
 
Jewelers’ saw blades are hard enough to cut knife stock. Slowly. Takes practice and a steady hand to not break blades left and right, but they will cut. Frame and blades are a nice option for those who want a “by hand” or lower $ option. Patience and willingness are mandatory.
 
Dont overthink it. Simple versatile tools and creativity go a long day. I use a harbor freight portaband on a homemade stand for most of my cutting. I use a homemade 1x42 grinder for just about everything else.
I dont see a need to cut curves on the bandsaw as I use the grinder to clean up the profiles to get to my finished shape.
I did pick up an oscillating spindle sander to do inside radi, but it's not a necessity as I used to use a sanding drum on my cordless drill to do the same thing. Some day I'll get a 2x72 with a small wheel attachment, but I can definitely live without it.
 
aelgin said:
Dont overthink it. Simple versatile tools and creativity go a long day. I use a harbor freight portaband on a homemade stand for most of my cutting. I use a homemade 1x42 grinder for just about everything else.
I dont see a need to cut curves on the bandsaw as I use the grinder to clean up the profiles to get to my finished shape.
I did pick up an oscillating spindle sander to do inside radi, but it's not a necessity as I used to use a sanding drum on my cordless drill to do the same thing. Some day I'll get a 2x72 with a small wheel attachment, but I can definitely live without it.
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so far, I have been able to use the 4x36 drive wheel for curves, there is no guard preventing me from doing so :)

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Absinthe said:
so far, I have been able to use the 4x36 drive wheel for curves, there is no guard preventing me from doing so :)

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That looks exactly like the 4x36 I used when I first started. If I were starting over again I would avoid the 4x36. I think you would be much better off with a 2x72. That would be my first priority. There's a number of problems with a 4x36, including being underpowered. I made a number of modifications to mine over time to improve it, but the mods didn't help that much.
The biggest issue I ran into with the 4x36 as is, was the inability to get a nice clean plunge line. That's what most of my mods set out to do, but again, the mods only helped so much.
 
As for the 4x36 I merely used the front curved drive wheel for curves the way someone might with the wheel on the 272. I only recently found out that it can have it's orientation changed to be vertical. I don't care for its platen and if I were to use it for profiling I would have to add a decent plate. On top of the existing stamped steel.

The two 1x30s at least give me the ability to keep 2 different belts mounted so there is that as a convenience. I had to create a plate. For one of them, and it probably needs to be reshaped/sized now that I see the existing one. I was, however able to use one of them to bevel a marking knife that I made.

I get that a 2x72 is optimal, however that is a not only a big ticket item, it also will require a fair amount of space. I just ordered a Bosch portable band saw, so that is taken care of. I have seen other 2x ones, and missed an old craftsman 2x34 or something like that for like $30. But I didn't think it would be any better than my 1x30s.

On to the next thing, and start my piggy bank for what I can't make-shift.
 

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Absinthe said:
so far, I have been able to use the 4x36 drive wheel for curves, there is no guard preventing me from doing so :)

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Here's MY advice (and what I personally did) regarding a 4X36.

Swap the motor.

Get at least a 1.5HP motor, preferably a 2HP. Do the math to figure out what pulley ratio will get you to an appropriate surface speed on the belt (don't worry about the disc sander).

I THINK you have a 2.5" wheel on that belt grinder and 3650RPM is common for electric motors. So the math would be something like this: 2.5X3.141=7.8525 (that's your wheel circumference)

Say you want 6,000 SFM...

6,000*12=72,000 so 72,000 IPM

72K / 7.8525 = roughly 9,100 RPM.

9,100/3,650= roughly 2.5

So you need the motor to turn 2.5 times faster than the wheel to get 6000SFM with a 2.5" wheel and a 3650RPM motor.

If you get a VFD and a 3 phase motor, you can vary the speed infinitely.

Anyway, with a good ceramic belt you can remove a LOT of material with those 4X36 machines, but only if you can get the belt moving fast enough.
 
For the 1X30 belt sanders (and 1X42 sanders) I keep very fine belts on them and use them for sharpening/honing/polishing.

If you are going to mill something, look for a used mill or mill/drill (basically a drill press designed for milling). They aren't cheap, but what is?

The next step up from a coping saw would be a scroll saw. They can be had used for under $100 in good shape.
 
52 Ford said:
Here's MY advice (and what I personally did) regarding a 4X36.

Swap the motor.

Get at least a 1.5HP motor, preferably a 2HP. Do the math to figure out what pulley ratio will get you to an appropriate surface speed on the belt (don't worry about the disc sander).

I THINK you have a 2.5" wheel on that belt grinder and 3650RPM is common for electric motors. So the math would be something like this: 2.5X3.141=7.8525 (that's your wheel circumference)

Say you want 6,000 SFM...

6,000*12=72,000 so 72,000 IPM

72K / 7.8525 = roughly 9,100 RPM.

9,100/3,650= roughly 2.5

So you need the motor to turn 2.5 times faster than the wheel to get 6000SFM with a 2.5" wheel and a 3650RPM motor.

If you get a VFD and a 3 phase motor, you can vary the speed infinitely.

Anyway, with a good ceramic belt you can remove a LOT of material with those 4X36 machines, but only if you can get the belt moving fast enough.
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So, what is the goal speed? Or range of speeds?
 
Good question.

I'd like for some other members to weigh in, but 6,000 or 7,000 SFM would be plenty fast, I think. The fastest I've seen someone run a belt grinder was 9,000 SFPM.

If I recall correctly, with the pulley set on my 4X36, I'm around 3,000 SFPM and it's definitely usable. I think faster would work a lot better, though. I need to swap out to a bigger motor before I bump up the speed, though.
 
I have a 7" drive wheel on my grinder. 2HP 1740rpm on KBAC 27D set on double. So speed is:

50%/60Hz = 3187 sfpm
100%/120Hz = 6374 sfpm

I typically run at 70% (~4500 sfpm) to rough grind at 50 grit, and drop to about 50% when I step up to 120 grit. Everything else is under 40%.
 
wow, just watched a bunch of people doing mods to these things. Now I wish I had more than one of the 4x36 to play with. :) I will look at getting a bigger pully, and either clipping the sides or adding in some platen material. I am not sure what I can do to the 1x30's yet, but I think I can get a more usable configuration out of the 4x36. AAMOF, I just saw a kid convert one of them into driving a 2x72 belt. Probably not the best thing, but certainly a functional solution. Everything is something, and sure enough, it is all easier than doing it by hand. Bring on more suggestions. Not sure if I can goose up the motor, quite yet, but I can certainly add a bigger pulley. And either clipping the sides or simply adding in a chunk of metal the width of the belt for a platen will allow me to have plunge lines. So I have a starting point.

I may have a big motor to play with, it is possible that the centrifugal clutch is failing and well if I can fix that I will have a potent 240 v motor to try and do something with. And I know I have a washing machine motor somewhere.
 
just realize that eventually you will get a 2x72 and every dollar you spend in another direction is money that could have gone to getting your 2x72.

If you want to use what you already have, that’s one thing. But as soon as you start spending money to acquire tools it’s time to think long term. Never buy anything that you already plan to replace.
 
Edwardshandmadeknives said:
I would say the 2 x 72 should be one of your “top of the list” items.
That, a drill press, and files will get you pretty far.
A lazy critter that sleeps all day in the shop is also pretty commonplace in knifemakers shops. Mine is a cat.
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This. A 2x72, a drill press, files and a vise will actually make your time productive. You can always send out for heat treat. Having a 2x72 will allow you to do real work post-heat treat and really open up the possibilities. I'd rather have a 2x72 and a homemade everything else, rather than have a shop full of tools and no 2x72. It's that important.

Even if I never made another knife, I can't imagine ever being without my 2x72. I use it for something every day. There's no doubt that it's an extremely expensive piece of machinery when you're on a shoestring budget, but that grinder will allow you to do things that you simply can't do without it, and it will make you money. An analogy would be that a good photographer can make great photos with an instamatic camera- but you'll probably never learn enough to become a good photographer if all you ever have is an instamatic camera.
 
John Wilson said:
just realize that eventually you will get a 2x72 and every dollar you spend in another direction is money that could have gone to getting your 2x72.

If you want to use what you already have, that’s one thing. But as soon as you start spending money to acquire tools it’s time to think long term. Never buy anything that you already plan to replace.
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Sounds like words to live by. I do want to use what I have first. Until I can't. :)
 
John Wilson said:
This. A 2x72, a drill press, files and a vise will actually make your time productive. You can always send out for heat treat. Having a 2x72 will allow you to do real work post-heat treat and really open up the possibilities. I'd rather have a 2x72 and a homemade everything else, rather than have a shop full of tools and no 2x72. It's that important.

Even if I never made another knife, I can't imagine ever being without my 2x72. I use it for something every day. There's no doubt that it's an extremely expensive piece of machinery when you're on a shoestring budget, but that grinder will allow you to do things that you simply can't do without it, and it will make you money. An analogy would be that a good photographer can make great photos with an instamatic camera- but you'll probably never learn enough to become a good photographer if all you ever have is an instamatic camera.
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You don't really need to sell me on the benefits of an actual 2x72. I kind of get that. What I need more is to know how to get along without one until I can afford one. I don't imagine my knives selling well enough, soon enough when I am just learning at this point. But who knows?

The way I see it, hobbies are either a luxury, or they pay for themselves. Other than my soap making, I am not making money with anything else from the woodshop, regardless if it is coming off of the lathe, or the table saw. Granted, making my own beekeeping equipment helps offset some of the expense of that one if that counts towards the wood shop. :) So, until I can make enough money to keep me in blades, and materials I kind of have to make do with what I have. I chunked out the money for the Bosch band saw because I just couldn't see myself doing that by hand more than once. There is going to be some expense to getting to a hard/tempered blade one way or the other. So I am looking at those options. And I already have a 4x36 and 2 1x30's (and of course my OSS ) that are somehow going to have to be sufficient, at least for a while.

As long as I can understand the shortcomings, I can figure out some kind of work-around and alternative process. Just need to get to that point.
 
To get by with what you already have, you will be fine. The most important thing you could have right now is the access to knowledge. I’m sure that most of us that have been doing this for some time started out using pretty similar stuff to what you have. You might be able to make money off of it. Probably not enough to get rich, but if you are lucky you will make enough to break even on it. You can make absolutely fantastic knives with the tools you already have, it’s probably just going to take longer and be more labor intensive. A lot of people have said the 2x72 thing, including me, but earlier I was working on a blade and the thought crossed my mind that not a single blade has ever left my shop that hadn’t spent some time on my disc grinder. I think out of all my tools, my disc grinder would be the last one I wanted to part with, and you have one already on the side of your 4x36.
 
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