BE2519 / 1.2519 / 110WCrV5 tool steel

scott.livesey

scott.livesey

Dealer - Purveyor
1.2519 is a chrome/tungsten cold work tool steel that is close to O-7. It is recommended for industrial blades, taps, dies, and reamers. typical composition:
C: 1.10
Si: 0.25
Mn: 0.3
Cr: 1.20
V: 0.20
W: 1.30

if you do some exploring, you will find the composition is almost the same as Hitachi Aogami1 or Aogami2. It seems about as easy to find. i guess you could call it super O-1 or 52100 on steroids. Roman Landes has commented that this is one of the finest non-stainless steels available for knives, that the tungsten and vanadium additions allow you to grind a very thin, razor sharp edge with extremely good edge retention(in the kitchen, not a steel for chopping wood or 3/4" manila twine)
I am going to try some as it appears to be a step above 52100/O1/A2 or CPM1v or CPM3V with a low temperature heat treat. why should the makers in the "Greater Eastern Coprosperity Sphere" be the only ones with super high carbon steel?

recommended heat treat:(from Bestar and Metal Ravne) I will probably use one of the pieces i ordered for testing
heat to 1475-1500F or 800C
quench in warm fast oil. one site also lists quench in brine. as quenched hardness Rc66-67
temper at 300F for 1 hour. cool. clean. Rc 65
temper at 350F for 1 hour. Rc63-64

I have found two sources:
Bestar LLC (770) 801-8855 american distribution site in Atlanta only size is 3/16" x 24 1/2" x 24 1/2"
http://www.schmiedeglut.de/shop-messermacherbedarf/messerstahl/ a knife supply store in germany. i have 5 1/16" pieces on order. will let everyone know when they arrive and how they worked.

if anyone has used this steel, any and all comments welcome
 
Scott, thank you so much for getting this out there. I had no idea this stuff even existed. I just placed an order for a couple of bars of the 1/16" stuff as well. Really looking forward to using it.
 
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I use this steel for 17 years, and in my opinion it is simply one of the best, most fine grained tool steels with high wear resistance simultaneously on a very tough Edge, and very easy to sharpen and very easy to grind and to finish.Blades thinner than 3 mm i will not grind bevor heat treating.
.No triple cycles in hardening/tempering or any other special treatment, just 830 Degrees holding for 5 minutes, quench in oil, tempering 3 x 40 minutes with 210 Degrees to dark orange and that makes such a high quality blade that is outstanding.
There are other steels that I strongly like to recommend : 2516 (120WV4) all the good things like 2519 but with very low Cr that it forges and welds like a dream.
2552 and 2550 with 0,8 and 0,6 in C content makes the toughest Hunting knifes and choppers. 2519 can only be topped with 2442 (115W8) in some minor aspects.
all this steels allow a very thin ground edge.
Best Edge holding ability is gained from 2562(142WV13) 1,4% C and 3,3% Tungsteen, a blade made from that steel holds an edge, even longer than 2519 but is sensitive and only for really fine working blade.....and that stuff eats away your belts....very unpleasant to grind and to finish.
I took a picture out of the "Steel Key" were cold working tool steels are enlisted, the order of the alloy elements from left to right :
C / Si / Mn / P / S / Cr / Mo / Ni / V / W
nearly 2 decades i use them and for my knifes i couldn't find something better.
 
Thanks for that info Jeremiah. One initial question I had, and I think Scott asked on another forum, was if normalizing was necessary if only doing stock removal. I do at least two cycles on every steel I use. But it seems that normalizing is not required with this steel. I may have to do one quick thermal cycle just in case, for my own sanity anyway!!!
 
howdee yawl,
got word from germany that my steel has shipped. from what i have found out, the steel does not need to be normalized. also, oil quench only. key seems to be get the steel to 1475F (800C), short soak(6 minutes or so), quench and temper. i ordered 5 pieces and will probably use one piece for testing. since knife making has become more than a hobby, i will pretend i am at the office doing prototype parts and keep good notes.
 
I suppose I should clarify my terms here. Normalizing probably won't be necessary with this steel, from what Scott has learned and others are saying. If this is true, then the steel should have the alloying very well distributed throughout the matrix as it is. However, I ponder the grain size. It can be well distributed, but large, and a thermal cycle or two will help to bring grain size down from what it is. Of course, the vanadium in there should automatically help control grain size with the right heat treat, and totally negate the need to thermal cycle. Hmmmmmmm.....I see an experiment in the works. I orderd two 1/16" bars. Will grind after heat treat, for sure, but one may just get austenitized, while the other gets a few thermal cycles beforehand. My guess is I won't be able to tell the difference, the steel's chemistry directing a fine grain structure without the need of "grain refinement". They'll both be identical kitchen knives...like a Japanese petty knife. Low angle edges to let this steel shine! One for me, one for dad!!! I'm getting very excited about this steel...cannot wait for it to get here. Had to brush up on my German to order it, tho.

Thank you so much, Scott, for pointing me in that direction!

Here is a question about austenitizing temps.....I've learned that the higher carbon steels need to stay around 1475 or under for the best shot at max hardness. However, the higher carbon steels that have a decent amount of alloying, I think, need to be austenitized at higher temps.....maybe 1525-1550. Dunno...Jeremiah in his post said he is doing 830C (1525F) for 5 minutes. That's a big difference in temp. I have this same question with 52100 and CFV, what is the evidence showing best edge retention between the low vs high aust temps?
 
samuraistuart: if you only do stock removal there is no need to normalize.
Tungsten(Wolfram) keeps fine grain even up to 900 degrees, if not holding to long time.2519 should be normalized at 850 degrees, to get the bunches of carbides in solution.2 - 3 times holding for a few minutes should work
that may be necessary if the steel company is not working properly.this is visible in the state of finer finish, there should be no carbide and matrix slices seen.
so you already done well and be on the safe side.
 
Hey Jeremiah! So you're saying to be on the safe side, I should go ahead and do a few thermal cycles? I think I will, like you said, just to be sure. It is definitely good to know exactly what condition your steel is in, especially before hardening. My plan is to actually do three descending cycles, treating it much like I would spherodized 52100. 870C, cool to black. 815C, cool to black. 760C, cool to black. Then harden at your recommendation of 830C. I do have a question......what oil are you using to quench? A fast oil like Parks 50, or a bit slower oil, like 11 second oil, or canola? Thanks!
 
an update
made two test blades, ultra-basic, nakiri shape, 95mm x 42mm blade, 105mm tang. heat treated yesterday. put a starter bevel on both sides and heat treated, tempered, washed and took to office to check hardness. results have me scratching my head. one blade 5 point test of RC64, the other blade 5 point test Rc61-62. heated at same temp, quenched in same oil. differences: 1st blade went in a cold furnace, 2nd blade went into 1400F furnace, 1st blade was tempered about 20 more minutes than 2nd. my oven is still new to me, it may heat higher than set point.
blades are ultra basic, 95mmx40mmx1.5mm blade with 4 1/4" tang, will probably do a scandi grind. going to call it a "Deusche Nakari". going to leave the hardness alone, i am curious how the one at Rc64 will finish.
I have been working on the Rc61 blade and have finished the edge to 320 grit wet. the edge took off hair with no pulling. will sand again with 400 wet then 600 wet then mount a handle.
 
That sure sounds like an interesting steel - just how much is shipping from Germany to USA?
 
Ken, I really don't recall the exact total of my order. But it was around $45 total. Two bars of 1.6mm x approx 30mm or 40mm x 300mm of 1.2519 steel with shipping. To give you another idea, I ordered one bar of 5mmx50mmx300mm of 1.2519 from another vendor and it was $46, of which $22 was shipping. Both German vendors.
 
I spent $55 for 5 pieces 1.6mmx40mmx325mm. that includes the shipping. the company took paypal. it took almost 3 weeks from order to receipt.
I found a door at work last nite with my forehead, so i have the day off. will try to get 1st blade(hardness is Rc61-62) finished and a picture posted.
 
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Thanks for the info - Scott, your steel works out to about $11/knife for a decent kitchen knife - which isn't to bad. 1.6mm which is .063" - is that thick enough for a kitchen knife of 12" long? I've been using .092"X1.5" for 12" chef knife. .063" sure would be nice for paring/steak knifes.

Just how stain/corrosion resistance will that 1.2519 steel be? My wife has fussed about the carbon steels I've made so I changed to SS using Sandvik steels.

Ken H>
 
I just got through making a knife from 15n20 that was .065" thick, and it was 13" OAL. A replica of those Dexter knives, or Victorinox knives, that you might see often on boats and around fishing. Looks like a chef's knife...but much thinner. They come with plastic handles, usually white or black. I made the replica with walnut, as requested. It's definitely not too thin......you just have to be careful during heat treat that it doesn't warp on you. And grind after heat treat being best.

Concerning the stain resistane of 1.2519.....suffice it to say....there is none. It will patina and even rust if not cared for. It is carbon steel after all, and has less than 1 point of Cr, which probably gets tied up in carbides anyways.
 
Thanks for the info - I've used thin stock for fillet knife (actually thinned down .092" I had), but never did a chef knife that thin- not that I've done that many chef knives - or knives in general. I do like thin blades for kitchen knife, sure makes them slice nicely. A chopper needs some thickness for sure.

Well, I guess I'd better stay with SS - the wife just doesn't like that patina at all. Myself, I sorta like it. But, that Sandvik 14C28 or 12C27 steels sure are good steels.

Ken H>
 
KenH said:
Thanks for the info - I've used thin stock for fillet knife (actually thinned down .092" I had), but never did a chef knife that thin- not that I've done that many chef knives - or knives in general. I do like thin blades for kitchen knife, sure makes them slice nicely. A chopper needs some thickness for sure.

Well, I guess I'd better stay with SS - the wife just doesn't like that patina at all. Myself, I sorta like it. But, that Sandvik 14C28 or 12C27 steels sure are good steels.

Ken H>
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i am trying this steel because of it's makeup. 1.1%Carbon is definitely high carbon. 1.2%chrome, 1.3%tungsten, and 0.3%vanadium should give that carbon plenty of atoms to make carbides with. also it heat treats at 1500F which all of my kilns can easily reach.
I picked up a collection of commercial knives for next to nothing a flea market for test and comparision. all of the chef/slicer knives are thinner than 0.1", less than 3/32". The 4" blade i made with this steel has almost no flex, as intended.
 
The Sandvik steels, from what I hear, are really really good. The only experience I have with Sandvik is 13c26, which is basically the exact same steel as AEB-L. AEB-L being developed quite some time ago for the razor industry. IIRC it only has around .6%-.7% carbon, so few carbides form, which keeps the steel very fine grained. Which, is great for razors and the like. While some wear resistance is sacrificed...because of the relative lack of carbides....it really does keep a great, really great edge. And super sharp. A superb choice for the kitchen....any of the Sandvik steels. Just in contrast, the 1.2519 carbon steel, with the chromium, tungsten, and vanadium, serious carbides are going to form. These carbides prevent from the best possible edges (but still exceptionally razor sharp), however the trade off is the wear resistance is much better.

Scott, we're anxious to see pics!!!!
 
While this amazing steel will have GREAT wear resistance, how easy will it be to resharpen down the road on just a steel or stone? Back when I had to rely on just a stone to sharpen with, I'd rather had a knife that required a bit more sharpening, than one so hard that it was VERY difficult to sharpen. The Sandvik steels (12C27 and 14C28) seem to hold an edge pretty good in the kitchen, and when it does need touching up a bit, the steel works wonders.

With 1.2% chrome, I'd think the patina would be a tad slower to form than say.... 1084?

Ken H>
 
dont know when or how the patina will show up. that is why i am making a test mule, to see what happens in every area. i have been finishing the edge on a diamond stone, once done we will see how it lasts. after conversations on a sister forum with a european maker who uses this steel, i made the blade with a total angle of about 15 degrees with a scandi kind grind, no secondary bevel. i am hoping the knife will excel as a slicer, it have very little flex and should be able to make see-thru tomato and cucumber slices(pork, beef and chicken as well.)
 
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