AEB-L steel, pro's/con's

vlegski said:
Understand the defensiveness and how large the metallurgical field is. Maybe he could suggest some reading material since he claims Dr. LARRIN isn't experienced enough or knowledgeable to teach us metallurgy
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I pick John D Verhoeven.

Edit: I actually suggest doing it how YOU learn using multiple sources correctly. Nowhere did I ever say that Larrin's information is false. It's just not to the extent that I need it.
 
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Next time read the post! .... I Never accused you of saying DR. LARRINS information was false. I said you were claiming that Dr. Larrim was experienced enough or knowledgeable to instruct us. I derived that opinion from you constantly denigrating of his knowledge.
And you never answered the question of which type of strain was contributing to the warpage during the RA/ martensite transformation phase. Why the dodge?
 
Edwardshandmadeknives said:
Try including some comprehension with your reading. I stated that RA being converted causes warping. That is, when it turns into martensite, especially when it is unevenly distributed within the bar of steel, it will induce a warp. No wonder metallurgist don’t like you. Not only are you an idiot, you really think you know something. Go crawl back behind your dumpster and fire up that crack pipe and leave the adults alone here.
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vlegski said:
Next time read the post! .... I Never accused you of saying DR. LARRINS information was false. I said you were claiming that Dr. Larrim was experienced enough or knowledgeable to instruct us. I derived that opinion from you constantly denigrating of his knowledge.
And you never answered the question of which type of strain was contributing to the warpage during the RA/ martensite transformation phase. Why the dodge?
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I answered it to the extent that I could guess, if you bother reading, and I do not do this bullshit, either block me from triggering your snowflake little ass or I will.
 
Since this is an open forum you are free to do as you wish. However you accused me of saying things that I did not say and I will call you out..
Blocking just means you don't have to answer when someone calls you out.
 
vlegski said:
Since this is an open forum you are free to do as you wish. However you accused me of saying things that I did not say and I will call you out..
Blocking just means you don't have to answer when someone calls you out.
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Okay I'm game.
vlegski said:
Next time read the post! .... I Never accused you of saying DR. LARRINS information was false. I said you were claiming that Dr. Larrim was experienced enough or knowledgeable to instruct us. I derived that opinion from you constantly denigrating of his knowledge.
And you never answered the question of which type of strain was contributing to the warpage during the RA/ martensite transformation phase. Why the dodge?
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"I said you were claiming that Dr. Larrim was experienced enough or knowledgeable to instruct us." - Where did I say that?

vlegski said:
Since this is an open forum you are free to do as you wish. However you accused me of saying things that I did not say and I will call you out..
Blocking just means you don't have to answer when someone calls you out.
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What did I accuse you of saying exactly? As I last checked, I'm the one accused of saying things I did not.
VeraX Knives said:
I do. I let Larrin know something he did not about cross licensing from John Shiesley (Crucible pres) who...gave me more information than I asked for but asked me to not share it so ill...say the information is public knowledge and... AKS *WILL* lie to you left and right without care. That's all I'm going to say. (This is half why I am disliked; I ask questions.)

About the warping issue, you can skip the AQ cryo and do it after a temper to pretty much end that -- which I do with certain alloys. AEB-L would be similar to the carbides and content of what I do that with. Just an idea. Is it as effective at removing RA? Obviously not but steels such as AEB-L actually benefit in the toughness category from *SMALL* amounts of RA moreso than other alloys, I'd personally do it.

Cheers,
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This is all I said and all of this is TRUE. Now please point out what you are looking for when I posted this.
VeraX Knives said:
I ain't going to act like I know. Larrin Thomas is a metallurgist. I am a network systems administrator. I have 6 degrees in different areas not one. If I had to guess, it's all of them minus the RA to martensitic transformation would be the least pertinent. I'm not a professional as it states but I'm not retarded.
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I'll wait.
 
vlegski said:
Understand the defensiveness and how large the metallurgical field is. Maybe he could suggest some reading material since he claims Dr. LARRIN isn't experienced enough or knowledgeable to teach us metallurgy
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This would be this > since you asked.
VeraX Knives said:
I pick John D Verhoeven.

Edit: I actually suggest doing it how YOU learn using multiple sources correctly. Nowhere did I ever say that Larrin's information is false. It's just not to the extent that I need it.
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At this point I'd like to apologize to Thomster for participating in a hijacking his thread on which steel.
Again my apologies!
 
Edwardshandmadeknives said:
If your blades warp, that means that you should be doing cryo. That is telling me that there would be sufficient RA being converted to induce a warp. If it’s not doing that with a freezer, it’s probably because the freezer isn’t doing anything at all.
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So, I've made quite a few more knives from AEB-L with thickness going as low as .062 stock. I have had zero warped blades.

I do not cryo nor do I plan to start now that I see my results. All my blades test at 60-63 HRC after tempering. I have also
thrown coupons in with every heat treat and the grain structure looks great under 1000x magnification with a usb microscope.

I did try the dry ice cryo on one batch. It was a huge mess and cost me some $$ on dry ice and acetone. I gained no hardness at all.
 
Edwardshandmadeknives said:
That’s awesome! Glad you got it all to work out. That AEB-L can be some real warpy stuff
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I have had zero issues with true AEB-L down to .02" not sourced from BU/Buderus FWIW. (Cartech only uses Swedish iron). Also, AEB-L does not really benefit from cryo as much as it... Well honestly in my opinion from what I know, *should*, but Larrin's testing has proven that opinion to be incorrect however that was X65. (Which I'd gotta research its benefits on cryo to say anything, so I won't) The entire point to my posting here was to let you guys understand that who is said to distribute certain alloys, and what they list such as Chuck or jessica at AKS, they say they won't disclose where a mill is located. Why? Oh, yes. Money. Sorry. There are other companies that do the same, I was asked not to disclose them so I will not. I can say this. Crucible and Robert Zapp cross licensed "CPM" and "Z" to each other. That's what pisses me off about this. I don't expect to be paid, just don't lie to me, and make me go above your damn head to the president of crucible, eh? Honesty is my policy and whether you like what I have to say or not, you're going to hear it truthfully. Now am I saying that 1% sulfur is enough to create asperities -- NO. I know this. But lying about it...tsk tsk. Not in my world. Sorry. I suppose I should add that I heat treat with anti-scale on the metal which creates a positive pressure (if anyone knows of what exactly please let me know) in the packet of HT foil (309), and I wet the seams with it also. It's way excessive, yes, I know it has zero to do with warping, I'm just explaining my HT procedure for redundancy.
CDHumiston said:
So, I've made quite a few more knives from AEB-L with thickness going as low as .062 stock. I have had zero warped blades.

I do not cryo nor do I plan to start now that I see my results. All my blades test at 60-63 HRC after tempering. I have also
thrown coupons in with every heat treat and the grain structure looks great under 1000x magnification with a usb microscope.

I did try the dry ice cryo on one batch. It was a huge mess and cost me some $$ on dry ice and acetone. I gained no hardness at all.
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I would guess you are not using X65. If you don't mind me asking, where do you source your AEB-L? AKS?
 
VeraX Knives said:
I have had zero issues with true AEB-L down to .02" not sourced from BU/Buderus FWIW. (Cartech only uses Swedish iron). Also, AEB-L does not really benefit from cryo as much as it... Well honestly in my opinion from what I know, *should*, but Larrin's testing has proven that opinion to be incorrect however that was X65. (Which I'd gotta research its benefits on cryo to say anything, so I won't) The entire point to my posting here was to let you guys understand that who is said to distribute certain alloys, and what they list such as Chuck or jessica at AKS, they say they won't disclose where a mill is located. Why? Oh, yes. Money. Sorry. There are other companies that do the same, I was asked not to disclose them so I will not. I can say this. Crucible and Robert Zapp cross licensed "CPM" and "Z" to each other. That's what pisses me off about this. I don't expect to be paid, just don't lie to me, and make me go above your damn head to the president of crucible, eh? Honesty is my policy and whether you like what I have to say or not, you're going to hear it truthfully. Now am I saying that 1% sulfur is enough to create asperities -- NO. I know this. But lying about it...tsk tsk. Not in my world. Sorry. I suppose I should add that I heat treat with anti-scale on the metal which creates a positive pressure (if anyone knows of what exactly please let me know) in the packet of HT foil (309), and I wet the seams with it also. It's way excessive, yes, I know it has zero to do with warping, I'm just explaining my HT procedure for redundancy.

I would guess you are not using X65. If you don't mind me asking, where do you source your AEB-L? AKS?
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I've purchased AEB-L from NJSB and AKS. Both with decent results. Dry Ice treatment did not improve AKS AEB-L at all...
 
CDHumiston said:
I've purchased AEB-L from NJSB and AKS. Both with decent results. Dry Ice treatment did not improve AKS AEB-L at all...
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dry ice isn't cold enough to work on AEB-L! not even with CaCl2(thank you Larrin Thomas for that information). LN2 really doesn't do much either. It seems like you did get Bohler AEB but. Who knows lol. If I were you, 60-63 is a knife steel ideal so why even waste the money? Our consumables cost enough already lol.
 
VeraX Knives said:
dry ice isn't cold enough to work on AEB-L! not even with CaCl2(thank you Larrin Thomas for that information). LN2 really doesn't do much either. It seems like you did get Bohler AEB but. Who knows lol. If I were you, 60-63 is a knife steel ideal so why even waste the money? Our consumables cost enough already lol.
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According to most others, Dry ice is cold enough. It is not cold enough for many of the more complex alloys. I had a conversation with the rep from B/U about Elmax like 9 years back. He said that a dry ice/acetone solution falls a few degrees short for those complex steels but is fine for the simple ones that his employer produced. To the best of my recollection. The guy who got the real AEB-L into the hands of some knife supplier folks was the sales rep for B/U Precision Strip. He later went over to BESTAR US in Atlanta. I don't know if he is still there. They occasional had "smaller" pieces of O2 in stock, but I ever tried to get any.
 
CDHumiston said:
So what is "REAL AEB-L"???
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I think Uddeholm is the mill that makes "real" AEB-L. Like many other steels, there are lots of close copies. Those generally fit under a grading system, but I don't know if that applies to AEB-L and similar compositions. This is not unique in the steel world. Steels like A2, D2, 52100, 1095, etc., etc. refer to AISI grade and have small variations from manufacturer to manufacturer. That may or may not make differences in HT.
 
Larrin talks about variations of AEB-L from different mills. The recipe is nearly identical, the difference being that the stuff you get from NJ Steel baron is apparently the "other" version and you need to raise your oven temp about 50 degrees when you harden it. This came up on a different thread and so I dug into it pretty deeply thinking that I was using counterfeit AEB-L. Yeah, not so much. Batch to batch inconsistency in a single plant is larger than any difference you may encounter between two versions from two mills. Mountains from molehills, such is the internet. The thing to remember is that these mills are making recipes with some gigantic customer in mind and we lowly knifemakers are buying the leftover crumbs. So if Wilkinson Sword wants .000123% manganese added for their 300 ton order, well your three sticks of AEB-L just got .0000123% manganese added.

Larrin put out a video on this and combined it with the effects of LN vs dry ice vs freezer hardening and even concluded that with the "other" AEB-L that "freezer cryo" yields statistically the same result as dry ice, and that LN gave about a point more hardness. I was happy to hear this because I have about a two year supply of the "other" AEB-L.

I can tell you that I have used AEB-L from several suppliers, which encompasses the Uddeholm as well as the other mill stuff and in the real world I can't tell the difference. Someone also mentioned that they heard some stuff is never coiled and thus has less warpage. I can't confirm that. It sounds like a great option though because AEB-L is warpy, as we all know.

I'm always happy to learn more and to improve my product in any way that makes sense. What I have discovered about AEB-L is that I'm perfectly happy with any of it, from wherever you get it. As always, YMMV.

My take on steel is fairly cro-magnon, but here it is. There's hardly a dime's bit of difference between any number of steels, at least differences that can be detected by actual usage of a finished knife. So I personally don't see spending mental energy over microscopic differences between two flavors of AEB-L. If those differences cause you problems, then it matters. If it's all academic and you can't prove it yourself, then leave it to the academics.
 
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John Wilson said:
Larrin talks about variations of AEB-L from different mills. The recipe is nearly identical, the difference being that the stuff you get from NJ Steel baron is apparently the "other" version and you need to raise your oven temp about 50 degrees when you harden it. This came up on a different thread and so I dug into it pretty deeply thinking that I was using counterfeit AEB-L. Yeah, not so much. Batch to batch inconsistency in a single plant is larger than any difference you may encounter between two versions from two mills. Mountains from molehills, such is the internet. The thing to remember is that these mills are making recipes with some gigantic customer in mind and we lowly knifemakers are buying the leftover crumbs. So if Wilkinson Sword wants .000123% manganese added for their 300 ton order, well your three sticks of AEB-L just got .0000123% manganese added.

Larrin put out a video on this and combined it with the effects of LN vs dry ice vs freezer hardening and even concluded that with the "other" AEB-L that "freezer cryo" yields statistically the same result as dry ice, and that LN gave about a point more hardness. I was happy to hear this because I have about a two year supply of the "other" AEB-L.

I can tell you that I have used AEB-L from several suppliers, which encompasses the Uddeholm as well as the other mill stuff and in the real world I can't tell the difference. Someone also mentioned that they heard some stuff is never coiled and thus has less warpage. I can't confirm that. It sounds like a great option though because AEB-L is warpy, as we all know.

I'm always happy to learn more and to improve my product in any way that makes sense. What I have discovered about AEB-L is that I'm perfectly happy with any of it, from wherever you get it. As always, YMMV.

My take on steel is fairly cro-magnon, but here it is. There's hardly a dime's bit of difference between any number of steels, at least differences that can be detected by actual usage of a finished knife. So I personally don't see spending mental energy over microscopic differences between two flavors of AEB-L. If those differences cause you problems, then it matters. If it's all academic and you can't prove it yourself, then leave it to the academics.
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Thanks for the detailed information! There was some random info about AKS AEB-L not being "Real" Uddeholm steel. It just got my curiosity up. I have had great results from my AKS steel with no cryo and no warpage even at .062 thickness.

I jsy did two blades with NJSB AEB-L and also had no issues. It was around .092 stock.
 
AEB-L is made by Uddeholm. The "other AEB-L" is not AEB-L. It would be 13C26 which is made by Sandvik and the NJSB stuff which is allegedly the 65 whatever Buderus steel. Not much difference , but apparently enough that you alter the temperatures a slight bit when austenizing.
 
I recently heat treated the last of my AEB-L from NJSB and hat 3 blades warp fairly bad. I heat treated 2 blades with AEB-L from AKS the same day with no warps. The NJSB was .092 and the AKS was .082. I also had a couple blades from AKS at .062 with no warps. I'm sticking with AKS.
 
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