getting your knives into dealers hands

Thanks for the informative post.
You answered one of my main questions, the ability to supply a steady knife or several. My real job prevents me from turning out a steady supply or steady one or two knives.

Out of curiosity are there any makers that deal strictly with dealers? No customer interaction, now shows, no forums, no website?
 
Hi Ryan,

Most knife makers don't want to put all of the eggs in "one basket". So few if any work alone with dealers.

To be honest, it is best that the maker be involved in the marketing of their work. There are collectors who will only buy from makers, just as there are collectors who will only buy from dealers.

A "steady" flow of knives will vary from dealer to dealer. Being full time my job is to sell as many knives as I can. I do that best when I have a steady flow of knives coming in. That does not apply to every maker I work with. Some I look at as bonus knives...maybe 3 - 4 a year, with collectors just waiting for the knives to come in.

You will find that the more knives you build, the quicker you will get at it.

I was a part-time dealer for 8 years before I went full time. It takes a while to build up the "skill set". Doesn't matter if you are a maker or a dealer.
 
There are several things I have read in this post that I have not thought about that you have mentioned.

Having a dealer (if your lucky enough to have one that likes your work) buy your knives is like buying advertisements and getting paid all at the same time. Even though the dealer expects to not pay full price and shouldn't pay full price, I believe that it is well worth it in the long run as a maker to have a dealer do some of the leg work for you in promoting your name.
I also think that the dealer would expect to receive an ample amount of product to keep the interest in the maker alive and to have it worth the dealers time and effort. What I mean is it would do no good for a maker to sell or give a dealer 3 knives and have the dealer do all the work of selling and promoting them if that is all that he will get from you. You get out what you put in and this goes for quality as well.
Rusty
 
Rusty McDonald said:
Having a dealer (if your lucky enough to have one that likes your work) buy your knives is like buying advertisements and getting paid all at the same time. Even though the dealer expects to not pay full price and shouldn't pay full price, I believe that it is well worth it in the long run as a maker to have a dealer do some of the leg work for you in promoting your name.
Rusty
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I actually think of it as better than just advertisements,

I could put an ad in the newspaper, that's advertisement but what percentage of newspaper readers wants one of my knives, maybe 2%?

I could rent a billboard, that's advertisement, arguable broader coverage than newspapers, but again, what percentage of people passing the billboard wants one of my knives, 2% if I'm lucky.

I can advertise in Knife / gun / hunting magazines (which I do), much lower coverage than newspaper or billboards, but higher likelihood of reaching my target audience, lets say 60-70%, that's pretty good right.

A dealer of custom knives will provide pretty much 100% coverage to my target buyer. No one goes to a dealers website/table/etc that isn't interested in custom knives.

it comes down to what is THE MOST effective way to get MY product in front of the BUYERS I want.

Dealers easily rank at the top of that list, then would come shows, then trade specific publications (knives annual books, magazines, etc), then broad spectrum type advertising.
 
There is another side of that advertising coin Stephan.

Advertising is not cheap no matter where you do it. Looking at the rate of return is tricky though. Maybe 2% of people that read a newspaper or see a billboard will be interested in what you have to offer. Actually 2% would be a GREAT return. With a 2% success rate a publication that reaches a mere 100,000 people would net you 2000 leads. Actual return percentage is usually much much less unless you are Burger King.

Advertising in a knife specific magazine certainly ups the odds of the person reading that magazine being interested in knives BUT the magazine is chock full of knife dealers, custom makers, production knife companies, disatributors, suppliers and even collectors looking for certain items. It's like trying to sell a snow cone to an Eskimo unless you have a recognized name already.

IMHO the best way to sell knives is #1. Make a DAMN FINE KNIFE. #2. Get it out into the hands of people that recognize and appreciate a damn fine knife for what it is. Physically putting your knife in peoples hands is essential until you become a well known highly sought after maker.

As important as shows are they cost $$$ and take time that could be spent on materials and making product.

I don't think there is a "best" way to sell knives but there are allot of different good ways and each one will fit a custom maker differently and produce different results.

As far as dealers are concerned, there are dealers and there are DEALERS. It has been mentioned here that most dealers are part time. That's true. There are also a few dealers that are full time. Selling knives, your knives or anybody elses knives, is their bread and butter. These dealers are looked to and copied by other smaller time dealers that have full time jobs. These full time dealers not only put your knives in the hands of customers that trust them but they also cause other dealers to take a look at what is being sold by the dealers that sell knives for a living, not as a hobby. That is where a maker having a website comes in handy. Secondary dealers can't very well ask the competition they are copying where they get thier goods so they Google the maker.

Having a high volume, full time dealer representing your product can be invaluable and the dealer discount is a wise investment.

my 2 cents. :sleeping dog:
 
I know this is an older thread but I've just got to add to this as I'm a dealer too. Rocksalt, you've hit the nail on the head!!! When buying from a maker I'm concerned about the following: My margin, price point, workmanship/materials, maker's business professionalism.
I was dealing with a (just ok) knife maker in our area. He became jealous of the $ I would make selling his knives in my store. (standard mark-up) His prices to me began to go up as his prices at local shows and direct to public began to go down. He never referred any business to me. And then one day a customer of MINE that I brought in with thousands of $ in advertising and 150 thousand dollars in stock wanted to meet the maker and order a knife a month. Of course I gave him the phone # and put the two of them together. Then the maker calls me and tells me he's not going to honor is agreement with me because I'm not doing anything.
Needless to say, I've never bought another knife from him. I'm not angry with him as much as I am disappointed. I really wanted him to do well.
Funny thing, he admitted just before this happened that I purchased more of his knives in a month than he sold in all of the shows he had done in the previous three years.
Talk about being short sighted.
I don't carry many locally made knives in my store because the better local makers don't need to sell to me. Their knives sell retail very quickly and they can't make them fast enough. There is no reason to give me a discount. If y'all have the production capacity to do knife shows and sell wholesale, or if you want to just sell to retailers, do what rocksalt said. Make it easy for us to do business with you.
--Accept custom orders and honor the agreement you have with the retailer.
--If a buyer goes directly to you for another knife and I originally brought him/her to you, send them back to the store to make the order and pay. Many buyers will try to work their way around the retailer to get a better deal. Ya can't blame them but don't let em. It will get back to the retailer.
--Also, take great care of OUR customer. Everything you do reflects on MY business.
--You don't need to give me a Net-30 account but don't call me the day after I receive your knife to see if I've sent you a check.
--If you're not making enough selling your knife to me at a wholesale price, charge me more but up your retail price accordingly. If your price exceeds my perceived value of your product I'll let you know. Really... I will!!!
--Don't place your work in a store on consignment. I know this is strange coming from a retailer, however, If I'm not willing to pay for it up front I am not confident it will sell in my store and I shouldn't have it.
--Be honest with yourself about the quality of your work. Ask yourself, is it worth the retail price. Did you use an S30V or 440A? How is the solder work on the bolster? What do the blades feel like when I open them. Does the design feel good in my hand?
--Want a long term business relationship with my business, simply care about my business. In return, I'll care about yours and together we'll all do what we love and make a living.
NOW that I've got that off my chest, I just realized that there are two more pages to this thread that I haven't read and this all might have been covered already. If it has, sorry.
I feel better though!
By the way, this is a great site. Thanks!!!
 
--You don't need to give me a Net-30 account but don't call me the day after I receive your knife to see if I've sent you a check.
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Do you let somebody walk out the door with a product and not worry about when they will pay you? Or do you need that money to run your business?

Not trying to be rude, just trying to show the other side.

-Jake
 
Hi Richard,

Net-30???

Your "Factory Knife" business is showing.

I have been at this 25 years (selling custom knives...no factory stuff) and "Net 30" has never come up among the custom knife makers.

Actually I don't know of a maker that would wait 30 days for their money or a custom knife dealer that would take 30 days to pay a maker.

I agree with you that the knife maker did you wrong. Your scenario (or a variation of it) has happened to every custom knife dealer I know.

The thing to do is put it aside and move on. There are (best guess) 4,000 custom knife makers in the US and about 30 dealers (about 5 are exclusively custom knives). So the odds are pretty good that you can find another knife maker.

Usually what happens is that if the maker will do you wrong (someone who has supported him so long) he will do the same to customers buying one or two. Eventually he will burn enough bridges that he will isolate himself. Happens at a very rapid pace on the Internet these days.

If your really pissed about it...put up your side of the story and use the makers name. Generally i find that those who don't want to use names are generally not telling the whole story.

I have had a couple of makers do me wrong and while I don't go out of my way to bad mouth them. When their names are brought up I make sure I tell everyone with in earshot what scumbags they are.

Now, so you don't think that I am a fair and just man. I maker sure I tell the makers that I will do this to every person who asks me about them. So they know. Several of these makers are no longer makers. Not just because of me, but because they are part of the 10% of society that are just screwed up in general. Most of the people involved in custom knives are good decent people. Then again there is always that 10%. :D
 
If your really pissed about it...put up your side of the story and use the makers name. Generally i find that those who don't want to use names are generally not telling the whole story.
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I like to hear a good tale of woe (with names named) as much as the next person, but according to the rules, if he names names is post would likely be deleted.

Richard I'll take you to task on another portion of your post though, actually "taking you to task" might be the wrong way to put it since I'll admit I'm not 100% sure that I'm right.

--If a buyer goes directly to you for another knife and I originally brought him/her to you, send them back to the store to make the order and pay. Many buyers will try to work their way around the retailer to get a better deal. Ya can't blame them but don't let em. It will get back to the retailer.
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It seems that one of the biggest reasons for getting a makers knives into the hands of dealers is to get the makers name out there. So if Joe Customer buys one of my knives from a dealer (not an exclusive) and decides he likes my knives and want's another one that the dealer does not have in stock, he call's me, mentions that he bought one of my knives from that dealer, then I should tell that customer to call the dealer and make arrangements through him? If that's the case, where is the benefit from the dealers discount? I have done exclusives and understand and agree that those are only to be sold through that dealer. So, Les or any of you other dealers, what do you say?
 
Hi Les,

So if Joe Customer buys one of my knives from a dealer (not an exclusive) and decides he likes my knives and want's another one that the dealer does not have in stock, he call's me, mentions that he bought one of my knives from that dealer, then I should tell that customer to call the dealer and make arrangements through him? If that's the case, where is the benefit from the dealers discount? I have done exclusives and understand and agree that those are only to be sold through that dealer. So, Les or any of you other dealers, what do you say?
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I view my relationship with a knife maker as first and foremost a business relationship. The object of that exercise is that the relationship is mutually beneficial for both.

I know that when I start working with a maker (especially if they aren't well known) that they are going to get additional orders because I am carrying their knives.

I know that when I write an article on a maker they are going to get additional orders.

I know that some collectors think that they can get the knife quicker and/or at a better price if they go to directly to the maker.

I know that some collectors after handling a makers knives at a show that I am set up at. Will later on choose to contact the maker and try to get the knife from them directly.

I also know that I am not going to see a nickel of those sales.

Now with that being said my benefit of helping to make the maker more popular than in their wildest dreams :D is:

1) I continue to get knives on a regular basis, even increasing the number or regularity of deliveries.

2) That if a client contacts me first and I place an order. Then that same client goes to the maker and tries to get a knife...the order should be mine. I have never had a problem with a maker honoring that...well in the last 6 years anyway.

Over 6 - 18 months generally what happens is that the makers I work with get to the point where they have all the orders they can stand and have to stop taking orders....except mine.

Then I am the one who is selling out the makers work every time I get a shipment.

Ultimately what is most important is that the knives are getting into the collectors hands.

You can have the best knife in the world but if no one knows about it or no one can get it...the maker will not be successful.

So Les I guess that is a long answer to a short question.

Hope that made sense.
 
Les I've reread this post a couple times and I'm still not sure if you agree or disagree :confused: so I'll have to call you when I gat back from St. Louis, this is probably something I should understand completely :)
 
Hi Les,

My point was that the relationship between maker and dealer is first and foremost a business relationship.

If I am not marketing your work to a broader audience than you reach...there is no reason to work with me.

If your knives don't sell (for whatever reason), there is no reason to work with you.

So, the maker and dealer have to work as a team.

I was pointing out that I know if a unknown or relatively unknown maker starts working with me. They will get additional orders that are placed directly with the maker, that I will not get any type of commission.

Quite frankly that is one of the reasons you are working with a dealer..to increase the amount of orders you receive.

Generally it is 6 - 18 months before the maker has more orders than they can stand and either have to limit the amount of orders they take..or stop taking orders.

Except from their business partner (dealer).

This allows the dealer to continue to promote the makers work. As those who follow "Flavors of the Month" on the Internet. Have no doubt seen the rapid rise...the leveling off and then almost without exception the falling demand for that maker.

Even with a high level of popularity, the maker has to continue to keep their name out there and their work in the public eye.

Hope this clears it up.

Feel free to give me a call if you would like.
 
That clarifies things a bit, I'll still call you sometime to make sure I get it right, I think I also need to talk to another dealer to make sure I haven't been doing him wrong. I've been full-time for over four years now and just when I think I've got it mostly figured out I find out there's more to it :)
 
Hi Les,

That is just my perspective.

Other dealers will look at things differently.

Richard wrote that he spent a lot of money in advertising (I don't know if that was for the particular maker he was talking about or just for his shop).

Regardless he felt that the maker owed him something...and the maker did.

That would be to provide him with knives in a constant and timely manner. That is the business end of the partnership.

As a full time maker you have to sell knives to stay in business (there is that word again)...and make a profit on each one.

A lot of makers have difficulty in the over promise/under deliver category. They want to please everyone and end up pissing off people...both dealers and collectors.

I think the biggest mistake that a maker makes, is forgetting that a dealer is also a customer....usually one of your best customers.
 
dealer is also a customer....usually one of your best customers.
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I'd have to agree with that. I still run across a few makers who grumble about the discount, but with the right dealers it's not only a steady income, it's just about the best advertising you can get.
 
Hi Les,

but with the right dealers
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Regarding the custom knife market, while on one hand there is a lot of help between makers and commrodarie shared by those involved in custom knives.

There is also a lot of jealousy among makers. As it seems their work is as good as anyone's...it is just bad luck that they aren't selling out at shows, getting magazine articles, winning awards or working with dealers.

The view of dealers by makers has really improved over the last 10 years. Maybe this is coinciding with the advent of websites on the Internet??

I can see the view of the maker who resent the discount they give, especially if they have their own website. If you are selling a knife to a dealer at a discount and all he/she does is put the knife on their site...how much are they really promoting you? The "right" dealer will do more than just simply put a photo of your knife on their website. Perhaps the best marketing a dealer can do for a maker is attending shows and actually "Setting Up a Table" at the show. This allows potential clients to actually handle your work...not just look at a picture. In essence your work is represented at the show, without you having to bear the travel expenses. I suspect if you did the math you would find out that the discount you gave the dealer who actually set up at the show would not cover your show expenses.

This is where the maker has to ask the dealer, what are you going to do to market my knives. Remember this is first and foremost a business relationship. If the answer is "Putting your knife on my website" the the full discount should probably not be given. Given the minimal marketing by the dealer...perhaps the minimal discount should be given.

Then again, I have never seen a dealer hold a gun to the head of a maker or threaten them with physical violence if they don't sell them a knife with a discount.

Les I suspect the majority of makers you hear complaining about the dealer discount are the same makers that dealers don't work with (remember the "Bad Luck").

For the makers who are grumbling about the dealer discount the resolution to this problem is simple. Stop doing business with the dealer. If you continue to do business with the dealer...stop complaining about the discount. :D
 
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Just to clarify a little. I don't expect net-30 from a maker, just don't dog me the day after you send me the knife. If you deliver it I'll write you a check!!!!
Also, let me make it clear. If I sell a maker's knife in my store and MY customer that I spent thousands of $ in advertising to get into my store wants more, I've got a choice. I can sell him another knife or I can send him directly to the maker. If I send him to the maker, I would expect the maker to put on a little dog and pony show for him and encourage him to order more knives. But if he does, the maker should send him back to me for payment and to pick up his order.
If the maker does not honor our agreement, and I find out about it (and I will), I'll drop the maker.
As I said in my previous post, many makers do not need to do business with a dealer. But for those that do, every knife you sell as a result of the dealer bringing a buyer to you should result in you making sure the dealer receives his taste as agreed.
This should result in the dealer bringing you more and more business and more profit for both you and him.
Profit, I like profit... I'm beginning to feel like a Ferengi from Star Trek. My lobes are getting bigger!!!!
 
Richard said:
J
Also, let me make it clear.
If I sell a maker's knife in my store and MY customer that I spent thousands of $ in advertising to get into my store wants more, I've got a choice.
I can sell him another knife or I can send him directly to the maker.

If I send him to the maker, I would expect the maker to put on a little dog and pony show for him and encourage him to order more knives.

But if he does, the maker should send him back to me for payment and to pick up his order.

If the maker does not honor our agreement, and I find out about it (and I will), I'll drop the maker.

As I said in my previous post, many makers do not need to do business with a dealer. But for those that do, every knife you sell as a result of the dealer bringing a buyer to you should result in you making sure the dealer receives his taste as agreed.

This should result in the dealer bringing you more and more business and more profit for both you and him.
Profit, I like profit... I'm beginning to feel like a Ferengi from Star Trek. My lobes are getting bigger!!!!
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I am not entirely sure how I would feel about this.

If I have someone contact me to order a knife similar to one they saw on a Dealer's site, your stipulation would be that I owe the dealer his percentage on the sale of that knife.

it would be a completely different situation however if the Dealer had specifically sent the client to me for a special request, I could agree that the dealer is due his percentage in that instance.

it really comes down to very clear open communication between the dealer and the maker. I could easily see a lot of assumptions leading up to a bad business deal and potential loss of business just because no one said out loud
"Hey Stephan, I sent Jon Doe to your site, he's looking for X knife but with Y handle, If you can make the knife by X date I will take care of payment directly with Jon"

or something to that effect.

I have 11 knife orders on my list from clients who saw a knife on Les's site, by your line of reasoning I would owe Les his commission on those sales even though they never talked to Les at all.....

am I misunderstanding something?
 
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