Will head bolts work?

C

chedester

Guest
I have a good supply of diesel engine head bolts from a dealer tech friend. I'm not sure what kind of steel they are made of, but it's not an air quenched A2) or stainless type. I've seen knives made from ball bearings, files (W-2), pump vanes (M-2), etc as long as the chrome content isn't very high. Does anyone have any experience making knives from head bolts? They're about 9" long x 1/2". I'm checking with Ford to see if they can give me the metallurgy specs for heat treating.
 
Never seen or heard of those being used but I'm interested to see how they test out.
 
Don't be supprised if Ford can't tell you. They just purchase bolts that meet certain physical characteristics and they may be unaware of what the alloy is. To be certain, the only way to tell, if Ford can't/won't tell you, is to send one off for analysis. You could also do a hardening test, quench in water and see if the steel will shatter. However, that only tells you if there is minimal carbon in it for hardening. Personally, I would think that they would only have a medium amount of carbon in them at best. After about 40 points there is little strenght to be gained through carbon content. You also don't know what other elements are in the alloy. For instance, railroad spikes have copper added for extra toughness. Unfortunantly for the knife maker, what increases toughness almost alway decreases hardness and wear resistance. I know from personal experience that free steel is hard to turn down but mystery metal is best to avoid if you can.

Doug Lester
 
i've used jaguar head bolts ,banding strips to make a poormans damascus and they worked real nice.i flattened the head bolts and stacked the banding stripes in layers and welded
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I like the head bolt idea if it turns out to be decent steel . An integral design with the head left on would be a cool look , too . I'm all for using " pre-owned " steel and handle material .
I'm a " junkyard " dog .
 
Most head bolts are designed to stretch when properly torqued, and have to be replaced after being loosened. Possibly a softer steel? Just a thought.
 
It's amazing what you can learn around here. I would never have guessed that head bolts stretch and are supposed to be replaced if loosened. I'm probably never going to mess with any but it's still neat that I learned something new.

Carey
 
I work at a ford dealer almost all head bolts are torque to yield meaning they stretch, and are only used once, I'm thinking if you had some older head bolts they would work for sure. I will get some and see what happens never thought about the headbolts for a knife though.
 
Inreresting points in this thread.....

I believe it best to remember the unique properties required for the application at hand. Doing so provides clues pertaining to suitability for an otherwise unintended application; however, we must keep in mind that they are merely just that- clues.

What requirements must a head bolt satisfy?
We need strength and toughness above all, and the operating parameters for each application will dictate not only the alloy used, but also the treatment of said alloy, and even assembly procedures.

For example, fulfilling the performance requirements for an automotive engine is vastly different than say, a turbine application. To take things further on automotive engines, we have diesel vs. gasoline, differing expansion characteristics (aluminum vs. iron), etc.

Something to keep in mind is the fact that surface hardness, although important, is a secondary consideration for these types of applications. Generally speaking, increasing hardness usually brings along our old friend- brittleness. Needless to say, that would not be conducive to a fastener application.
A knifemaker, for purposes of attaining desired edge hardness, considers carbon content (and varying methods of treatment) as the way to successfully complete the objective.
But such hardness is not needed for a bolt; remember, a steel bolt (of whatever alloy) is already harder than the material into which it threads (typically iron or aluminum).

So this is merely a long-winded agreement with Doug Lester in post #3.
For these types of fastener applications, strength is paramount. Hardness (or the ability to do so) is not as important.
Something I also have to constantly remind myself of is the fact that what is "high carbon" in typical industry is not considered so in knifemaking circles.

The alloy used can indeed be anything, but the alloys best suited for purposes of a head fastener tend to be the various "chromoly" alloys such as 4130, 8740, etc.
To a knifemaker, this translates into "low" amounts of carbon, "moderate" amounts of chromium, and "high" amounts of molybdenum.
This does not suggest that all head bolts are chromoly (remember, different objectives, not the least of which is cost controls); it merely provides a starting point to the "search for clues".
I'm gonna go out on a limb here and suggest that, for the most part, we may be better served by thinking of the typical head bolt alloy as a high-end structural steel, rather than a tool steel (what we're usually after for purposes of a cutting edge).

So it all depends on the type of knife one desires to make.
The individual making a throwing knife will probably be happy.
Someone making a "show" knife will be satisfied.
The person wanting a cutting edge probably may need to investigate things further.

Who knows, perhaps a mystery laminate over a known core (San Mai construction). Depends on the ability to forge and weld the mystery steel, though.
 
I would never have guessed that head bolts stretch and are supposed to be replaced if loosened.

Carey

When placed under tension, all steels "stretch".

Not to hijack the thread, but the question as to whether replacement is required (or not) is best answered by engine assembly procedures.
Engine design (and objectives) will certainly influence assembly procedures.

Starting at the foundation itself (the steel fastener), we have three concerns:
1. Modulus of elasticity- all steel is elastic. It can be "stretched" a given amount, yet still return to its original length.
2. Yield point- this is the point of exceeding elastic limits. Once we reach this point, the steel is permanently elongated (will not "spring back" to original length).
3. Tensile strength- this is how much tension the steel can take before it begins to physically come apart.

Points 1 & 2 are our concerns during assembly, and dictate the measuring method used when tightening the fastener. The amount of stress placed on the fastener (how much we "tighten" it) will determine if the bolt can be reused.

Strictly speaking, the head bolt performs the function of mating a head to a block, with a gasket in there for sealing purposes. Dissimilar materials (e.g., aluminum head with iron block) accelerates the problems, but methods are used to overcome those obstacles.
Even when the head and block may be of similar composition, they still expand at different rates due to differing thermal mass and combustion location.
The answer to this problem is placing the fastener under tension without reaching its yield point. This is our assurance of constant tension to obtain the clamping force needed for proper sealing.
Gasket construction plays a role here, too, but we'll get to that in a moment.

Ideally, we would determine if we were "within the tension window" by actually measuring bolt length (stretch), but that is not a feasible method for the typical engine design, as most applications have one end of the bolt inaccessible.

I know of three methods to determine how much the bolt has stretched. The first two methods are designed to keep the fastener in an elastic state, while the third method has a completely different objective.

Our first method of assembly- we use torque as a means of interpreting how much the bolt has stretched. This method more or less works, but is not without problems.
A primary consideration is equalized clamping force around the perimeter of the combustion chamber, lest we risk a blown head gasket. The problem with using torque as the method of measurement is the fact that it tells us more about friction than it does about actual bolt stretch. The more variance in friction from one hole to the next, the greater the probability that the bolts will not be under equal tension.
This is why service manuals will state not only torque specs, but also an exact lubricant to be used when obtaining those figures, all in an effort to minimize frictional variance.

The second method is to use angle as the final measurement instead of torque. This is a more precise method of interpreting bolt stretch.
The fastener is tightened to "just snug" (point of initial tension), and then an angle gage is used to tighten a specified number of degrees. Since torque is not the method of measurement, frictional variances are of no concern, thus leading to more equalized clamping.
In many situations, the engine builder/assembler will use a torque wrench to assess initial tension (you know, that "just snug") and then finish with angular measurement.

The third method of head bolt assembly is what is commonly known as "torque to yield" (TTY). This is really nothing new, as it is a spinoff of the second method. But in this instance, we are intentionally stretching the bolt beyond the yield point (the point where it is no longer elastic- it remains elongated after tension is released).
Why in the world would we want to go past the yield limit?
Remember, the goal is equalized clamping force around the perimeter of the chamber. If all the bolts have been pushed beyond elastic limit, they now have equal tension.
The caveat is that bolts subjected to this procedure cannot be reused- once we exceed the yield point, the bolt will continue to elongate. IOW, there is no accurate way to determine equal tension upon engine reassembly.
"But wait a minute, now. We no longer have the elasticity required to cope with those expansion problems you mentioned above!"
Yes, we do. The needed elasticity is no longer a function of the fastener- it's achieved through the gasket construction via advances in gasket technology.

So, can we reuse our head bolts?
As always, it depends.
Your parts salesman will tell you to always buy new bolts, even if it's for a motor mount.
If you have a "modern" engine with aluminum heads, rest assured the manufacturer probably used TTY during assembly, and you should replace them (the head bolts) if the engine requires disassembly.
If you're rebuilding the factory engine in Granpa's '71 pickup, clean 'em up, inspect for thread damage, and reuse. (Naturally, this assumes they have not been overtightened during a prior assembly.)

To bring this thread back into perspective, the notion of whether a head bolt should be reused (or not) will tell us very little, if anything at all, about the material composition of that bolt.
Strong steel, weak steel. Hard steel, soft steel. They all "stretch".
 
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