Widenening twist damascus billet?

[JeremyBartlett]

This message is directed to Ed, but instead of talking to him privately I'd rather put it in here in case it helps someone else out or maybe someone other than Ed has some input. I'm going to be making a couple of twisted w damascus billets this weekend and my issue is that both blades I'm going to be making need to be 2"+ wide. I twist by hand and twisting a 2 inch square billet is next to impossible, so I'm looking at probably 1 1/4" square before twisting. I know that you have loss around the edges when twisting. So my question is, what is the best way to get the width I need after twisting. I have a drawing die for my press, but no way to put the billet in sideways. I thought about a 1 inch round die on top and a flat die on bottom, but I'm just not sure.

 

[EdCaffreyMS]

Whew Jer! You're in a tough spot. I'm not a fan of trying to widen stock via a press....because more often then not, somewhere in the process, it gets away from you....in that you press too deeply (even if/when you use stop blocks, and assuming some type of drawing dies, a mild steel stop block can have problems stopping even a 25 ton press), and once you go too deep with any one press, it's next to impossible to recover, at least without wrecking the billet/steel.

When I have to widen anything, the air hammer is my go to tool. But, since you don't have that, you're pretty much left with the press....or a monumental amount of hand forging.

All that being said, it might be worth you time to try to build a set of drawing dies that would allow you to widen....but make sure you use an adequate stop block, otherwise you will end up with problems.

Now, when dealing with mosaics, presses, and drawing out billets (any direction), there tends to be much more noticeable pattern distortion because of how press dies "localize" the compressions in/of the steel..... often making the end mosaic patter look "choppy" That can be overcome, with very careful use of the press. Take very small "bites" in terms of the depth you press..... 1/4" or less at a "bite"......then go back over with flat dies....again with small bites (in depth). Do this in cycles of drawing dies, flat dies, taking those shallow depth bites, until you reach your desired end thickness. It's a long, slow, tedious process, but necessary if you want a mosaic patter to come out with as little distortion as possible.

Let me know how it goes.

 

[Casey Brown]

Just throwing out a suggestion I have seen some smiths do. You could do multiple twists, and forge weld them together to get the width you want. Once you get that width, you could cut slices off, kind of like a feather pattern billet. I think Jerry Fisk has a video on doing this.

 

[billyO]

...because more often then not, somewhere in the process, it gets away from you...

Thanks for sharing, Ed, and I'm both sorry and a little happy to hear that it's not just me that this happens to more often than I'd like.
I'll second the stop block suggestion. Another thing you might be able to do if your dies aren't oriented very well for the fullering, would be to make a top tool for this.

Take very small "bites" in terms of the depth you press..... 1/4" or less at a "bite"......

This!!! And another thing I'll add (especially when drawing out a billet) is to take small "bites" in terms of length as well, to minimize distortion. Try to mimic what a rolling mill would do. It's important to resist the temptation to use the power of the press and try to kill 2 birds with one stone here and go for width and length at the same time by using the flat portion of combination dies (if you have them). This really will distort your pattern.

It's a long, slow, tedious process, but necessary if you want a mosaic pattern to come out with as little distortion as possible.

I'm not sure which is worse, this or hand sanding.

 

[JeremyBartlett]

Thanks guys for the help. I'm going to weld up the stacks tonight and hopefully be twisting tomorrow. I'll let you know how it goes. Ed, I wish I had a hammer, just don't have room for one until I build my new shop. I know when I am ready for one its going to be a challenge finding one in good condition for a decent price.

 

[Gene Kimmi]

Something that might help. When I make twist damascus, I get everything forged square, then clean the billet up to check for delams. Once clean, I forge to as close to round as I can get before twisting. By doing this, I have very little loss on the edges of the billet once forged flat.

 

[JeremyBartlett]

Something that might help. When I make twist damascus, I get everything forged square, then clean the billet up to check for delams. Once clean, I forge to as close to round as I can get before twisting. By doing this, I have very little loss on the edges of the billet once forged flat.

Yeah, I'm thinking I'm gonna try that on these. A hammer would make that part so much easier. But what I will try to do it rotate it around on my flat dies, then hand hammer the rest. Appreciate the input