Why so Many Hidden Tangs

Like I said in my previous post, HT is everything. That Spyderco was too brittle allowing it to break at the thinnest point. If it would have been done right then this failure might not have happened. Here is a another example not broken behind the scales. Why did it break here? It was being used for a baton. I like making both hidden and full tang knives and have chopped and batoned with both without failure.

broken_knife.jpg
 
Bush Monkey said:
I am aware of the practice and it remains a mystery. Makes absolutely no sense to me.
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It all depends on what kind of feel you want in your knife. I've held and used knives that felt like paperweights, and knives that were light and wispy in the hand. Light and wispy takes a little more skill to achieve, not just in finishing, but in getting the heat treat just right so that the tang doesn't snap, and making sure the balance point is just right after the handle is on. You can't just heat the thing until your magnet falls off and then drop it in a bucket of goop.
 
jmforge said:
Fred, the funny part is that the minute that you start talking about putting a guard on a knife, I find hidden tang knives EASIER to make. That is probably different for people who have even a basic knowledge of machining operations, but I am not among that crowd at this point.:biggrin:
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That interest me. What makes hidden tang knives easier than making a full tang knife for you? Please share some of the techniques that make this possible.

Regards, Fred
 
NJStricker said:
It all depends on what kind of feel you want in your knife. I've held and used knives that felt like paperweights, and knives that were light and wispy in the hand. Light and wispy takes a little more skill to achieve, not just in finishing, but in getting the heat treat just right so that the tang doesn't snap, and making sure the balance point is just right after the handle is on. You can't just heat the thing until your magnet falls off and then drop it in a bucket of goop.
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The greatest tool ever made is the human hand. It adapts to the crudest of tools, even (forgive me) unbalanced ones. I have picked up and used "balanced" and unbalanced tools in just about every environment you can think of and I can tell you that I did not care where the "balance point" was on any of the tools I have used. I see a tool, pick it up and use it. If someone were to tell me their knife was unbalanced I would advise them to do some pull-ups. It's never about the tool and always about the hand that holds it. In spite of "studies show", I don't think much of "balance point" theory.

Maybe the answer to the poster's query is not about the knife at all. Generally speaking there are those among us who dislike things that are hidden or have a need to hide and there are those who are not bothered by but are attracted to masked, hidden, concealed or camoflaged things. I prefer the straightforward and honest look of a full tang knife where everyone can see most of the unmasked knife. Hidden tangs are like caulk and putty to a carpenter - they are all capable of hiding a multitude of sins.
 
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A hidden tang is only as strong or weak as the design and materials allow, the same as a full tang. All else being equal (and assuming that the full-tang maker hasn't gone and drilled a fastener hole right in the middle of a finger notch), the full tang knife may be stonger than a hidden tang, but one thing that often eludes the guys who make this argument is that all else is rarely equal.
Hidden tangs (through tangs, not the 1/2 or 3/4 length ones) were used on swords more often than not for many centuries. The technology was availible to make them either way, if the hidden tang were truly inferior you would see a lot more full tangs in museums and antique weapon collections. Then again, the idea of a sword tang at 59 hrc would probably make a 14th century blade maker cringe, if he had any idea what that meant.
 
Bush Monkey said:
The greatest tool ever made is the human hand. It adapts to even the crudest of tools. I have picked up and used "balanced" and unbalanced tools in just about every environment you can think of and I can tell you that I did not care where the "balance point" was on any of the tools I have used. I see a tool, pick it up and use it. It's never about the tool and always about the hand that holds it. In spite of "studies show", I don't think much of "balance point" theory.
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Bush Monkey,
I didn't say anything about "Studies Show"
I mostly make Chef knives .
The greatest tool ever made is our Brain.
It give's us the ability to make tools that fit and balance to our hands. And are suited for a particular job.

When a professional Chef picks up a knife, They usually are interested in the balance point in their hand.


You seem to make hard use war hacker, out in the boonies type blades.
Those are a different genre than a Chef knife that must be used 5-8 sometimes 12 hours or more at a time if you own a restaurant. There long term weight and balance mean alot when you must get perfect cuts of meat and veggies again & again.

Your own quote at the end of your post Talks about the last part being,
When there is nothing left to take away! ??

I am not saying mine are more or better than yours!
Just that each genre of knives are made to fit different needs. You say that there's no need for lighten handles in yours. OK.

There is in mine and others. Total perfection in a Culinary knife is what I seek!
Am I there? of course not, But that won't keep me from my pursuit of designing and making Culinary knives that are the perfect weight, Size, And balance point, etc, for my customers!

Cheers.

Laurence

www.rhinoknives.com/
 
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Rhino,

Your point is well taken and I have absolutely no experience in an area that you specialize in. Thanks for the education!

Jeff

ps Try making a knife using only what you profess to be the greatest tool - the brain.
 
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Or maybe the answer is simple , there are so many Hidden tang knives being made because Customers are buying them!!
 
Bush Monkey said:
Rhino,

Your point is well taken and I have absolutely no experience in an area that you specialize in. Thanks for the education!

Jeff

ps Try making a knife using only what you profess to be the greatest tool - the brain.
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Jeff,
I know apposing thumbs,Etc!!
All Great Apes and monkeys, and even Lemurs our very distant cousins have apposing thumbs.

What the diff?
It is our brain gives us the thought process to figure out how to heat Treat, As Burton noted.
Or I want to make a hidden Tang. Or want to make a full tang and drill it out for Index finger balance Or I want to design a knife and have someone like you make it for me!

So P.S. I can make a knife with my brain.

Cheers!

Laurence

www.rhinoknives.com/
 
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I am glad this is going on right now. I am right now looking at a hidden tang knife that I love everything about except I feel the hidden tang would be weaker it only makes sence.Insted of one peace of steel it is 2 peaces.But.....BUT!! Now that I read this thred I am feeling happier about the hidden tang now it sounds like people see them to be very strong. And now nothing about this knife bothers me. THANK YOU!!! Now I see the knife as perfect and I have to have it. See ya. I hope it is strong because I am about to spend an a$$ load of money on it.
 
A.W.Stovall said:
Or maybe the answer is simple , there are so many Hidden tang knives being made because Customers are buying them!!
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I would have to agree Mr Stoval.
BUT its strange
I have probably made over 200 knives in the last 7 years , all were customer orders.
One person asked for a hidden tang out of all of those knives.
I would say 80% of those people never intended on using them , safe queens. The rest were built for using , very specific handle and blade designs.

Hmmm very interesting

Dwane
 
rhinoknives said:
Jeff,
I know apposing thumbs,Etc!!
All Great Apes and monkeys, and even Lemurs our very distant cousins have apposing thumbs.

What the diff?
It is our brain gives us the thought process to figure out how to heat Treat, As Burton noted.
Or I want to make a hidden Tang. Or want to make a full tang and drill it out for Index finger balance Or I want to design a knife and have someone like you make it for me!

So P.S. I can make a knife with my brain.

Cheers!

Laurence

www.rhinoknives.com/
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A brain without a body is as useless as a body without a brain. But wasn't the conversation about hidden tangs? :biggrin:
 
Fred, with a hidden tang blade, no notching of the blade/tang and pinning of the guard. Just file the slot the right size and go at it. I have made one full tang blade with just rubber scales (JS practice test knife) and it was easy but ugly.LOL
 
I shouldn't even post as I have learned (I thought) :) to avoid these things.

This which is stronger debate is silly. My question is not which is stronger but rather what the heck some guys are doing with their knives to cause the breakage.

TO me it's this simple: buy a knife you like from a reputable maker or company and use it like a knife and you'll pass it on to your grandkids.

I have axes and saws and they do their jobs WONDERFULLY. A knife cuts stuff. Period. That's all it has to do. No knife will chop better than an ax or downsize wood better than a saw.

For the record, I have several hidden tang camp knives that I have literally beat to past the point of abuse. Stuff that I wouldn't want my collectors doing with my knives. But not one of them has failed. Neither at the edge nor in the handle/tang area.

That is all. Carry on. :)
 
Personally I think the debate seperates along modern vs traditional ways of thinking. Neophytes gravitate towards the superiority of the full tang based on the assumption that the blade/tang are of a homogenous heat treat and the tang is subject to brittle failure in the same mode as the blade. Given this assumption, the modern mind equates more metal at this area to greater strength, and the full tang appears to solve this issue quite nicely, if the cross section is not overly compromised with finger notches, fastener holes, lightening holes, choil cuts, etc. This last is important and if not properly considered in the design, these features often negate any benefit that was gained by the full tang design.

Historically, the through tang design often incorporated a selectively tempered or un-hardened tang to avoid brittle failure at this area. A number of medieval sword blades have wrought iron tangs forge welded onto the base of the blade just below the shoulders, which presumably was another way of addressing this issue. Varying hardness was the norm for most blades made before modern steel production, just how much of this was intentional and controllable is not precisely clear but it seems that blade makers were able to use it to their advantage.

This leads to a whole other argument which I suspect is much older and fundamentally more important than the through tang/full tang debate: whether a bent tang is preferable to a broken one?
 
Sorry about being so slow in getting back to this thread. I didn't think that it would take off the way that it has. To answere Dwane's question as to whether or not I think that a stick tang is easier to make, I'll say maybe. They can take a lot more forging, or grinding, to make than a full tang but they do have the advantage of being hidden so you don't have to worry quite as much about the final shape or finish. What I was commenting on is that easier to attach furniture like full guards and pommels to them. Even half guards require a bigger slot for full tangs as opposed to stick tangs. Note that I said easier and not easy. Fitting furniture, even bolsters to a full tang, can be a pain to get right.

Doug
 
Justin King said:
Personally I think the debate seperates along modern vs traditional ways of thinking. Neophytes gravitate towards the superiority of the full tang based on the assumption that the blade/tang are of a homogenous heat treat and the tang is subject to brittle failure in the same mode as the blade. Given this assumption, the modern mind equates more metal at this area to greater strength, and the full tang appears to solve this issue quite nicely, if the cross section is not overly compromised with finger notches, fastener holes, lightening holes, choil cuts, etc. This last is important and if not properly considered in the design, these features often negate any benefit that was gained by the full tang design.

Historically, the through tang design often incorporated a selectively tempered or un-hardened tang to avoid brittle failure at this area. A number of medieval sword blades have wrought iron tangs forge welded onto the base of the blade just below the shoulders, which presumably was another way of addressing this issue. Varying hardness was the norm for most blades made before modern steel production, just how much of this was intentional and controllable is not precisely clear but it seems that blade makers were able to use it to their advantage.

This leads to a whole other argument which I suspect is much older and fundamentally more important than the through tang/full tang debate: whether a bent tang is preferable to a broken one?
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Justin,
Your comments lead me to point out that the original thread was.
"Why So Many Hidden Tangs"
You are referring to a Through Tang.
Just for clarity,
I beleive there are three tangs that we make knives with?

1) Hidden or Rat tail Tang. only goes part way into the handle.
2) Through Tang that goes all the way through and is fixed by a Pommel.
3) Full Tang.

Did I miss any? Anyone?

Cheers,

Laurence

www.rhinoknives.com/
 
rhinoknives said:
Justin,
Your comments lead me to point out that the original thread was.
"Why So Many Hidden Tangs"
You are referring to a Through Tang.
Just for clarity,
I beleive there are three tangs that we make knives with?

1) Hidden or Rat tail Tang. only goes part way into the handle.
2) Through Tang that goes all the way through and is fixed by a Pommel.
3) Full Tang.

Did I miss any? Anyone?

Cheers,

Laurence

www.rhinoknives.com/
Click to expand...

I suppose you could include a mortised tang to that list. A little different in that it could be considered a hybrid between the full tang and hidden tang in that it is a hidden tang with a handle made up of 2 slabs.
 
rhinoknives said:
Justin,
Your comments lead me to point out that the original thread was.
"Why So Many Hidden Tangs"
You are referring to a Through Tang.
Just for clarity,
I beleive there are three tangs that we make knives with?

1) Hidden or Rat tail Tang. only goes part way into the handle.
2) Through Tang that goes all the way through and is fixed by a Pommel.
3) Full Tang.

Did I miss any? Anyone?

Cheers,

Laurence

www.rhinoknives.com/
Click to expand...

The lines seem to be pretty well blurred in some of the replies here, but for what it's worth, what I said can be applied to hidden tangs or through tangs, the point of contention in the "superiority" debate seems to focus on the shoulder area which is similar on both types.
 
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