Trade secrets? Original ideas? Sharing? Copy cats?

Self Made Knives

Well-Known Member
For you guys that sell knives, I'm curious about how you deal with copy cats. I've got an idea that I haven't seen anyone else doing. I've shown it to co-workers and they all like it and immediately say that they want one. I'd like to show it to you guys and hear your opinions, but at the same this is "my" idea. It might not even be a good idea, who knows.

Maybe this could be my selling point when/if I start offering my knives for sale. But, what if someone else who is already selling, takes it and starts using it? I'm not talking about some revolutionary amazing idea, just something that I'd like to keep unique to me. It's not worthy of a patent or anything like that, just my take on something.

I'm probably the millionth new guy that thinks he has a great idea, but really, what do you guys do to protect your unique ideas, patterns, etc.?
 
Anything you can think of probably isn't a novel idea. People have been making knives for thousands of years and there's just so many ways to shape something pointy and sharp. Somewhere along the line you'll run into something very similar to your "secret" design. The best you can hope for is that no-one else can copy the individual flair you impart to your work. We all have our own style and hopefully it stands alone from others. You'll find that very few of us who do sell our knives want to be known as copy-cats.
Sooooooo....

Lets see it, so we all make tons of money.:happy:


Rudy
 
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IF it's unique then it may be worth patenting. If not its probably been done before but is just not currently in vogue. Many makers develop a style that is easily recognizable and is unique to them. Its a nice feature when it comes to sales.

Fred
 
Good one Rudy, that made me laugh. I would like to attend a show and try and sell some of my stuff someday. It sounds like it would be fun and I'm not out to make a living, just support my hobby. That may be in a year or 5 years, who knows, but I would like to have something on my table that makes people think, "Hey, that's a neat idea, I need one of those!"

I'm not really talking about a style exactly, more like a feature that makes the knife do more than just cut. I've looked high and low and the web and I haven't seen this yet, so I've been keeping it to myself for the future. Again, I'm probably making this sound bigger than it is, just curious what you pros think. I guess you really wouldn't have any recourse if someone started doing the same thing, but it would be bummer.

Anthony
 
I'm glad you got the joke Anthony.
I'm willing to bet that a lot of us at some point thought we had the end all product that everyone would want. But then you wake up. In the last 30+ years there's been a lot of do-dads added to knives and even sheaths, probably a lot I haven't seen. Some good...some not. 2 years ago at a show I saw a knife with an LED light machined into the front of the guard. The engineering was great and clean but had me wondering who walks around in the dark with their knife pointing straight out or why. I hope your idea makes you rich....unlike most of us knifemakers.

We still want to see it though.

Rudy
 
I need a new idea....... lol Chevy it might be a new or at the least a tatcikool twist on an old idea. You have my interest in seeing it sir.
 
I've had a couple of those type ideas. In my case I regularly meet up with a fine group of area makers. We bounce new to us things around all the time and respect each other as we tear the idea apart. In 2 years of this not one of the ideas proved to be new. Just our different take on it.

Wish you the best on your idea. Secret number one if you don't really want to share don't talk about, just do it!
 
I'm going to start on a "batch" of four knives, like the one I've been talking about. Again, I don't want to inflate this to be something big, it's not really. When they're done, I'll offer them for sale to co-workers first and then I'll put them on here maybe. I'll try to come up with some good pics and share when I get them done. I was just wondering about protecting future ideas, if I came up with something really unique. Probably giving my creative side too much credit, but hey, it could happen!
 
Years of doing this has taught me many things......first, theres nothing new under the sun when it come to knifemaking....only different "twists". Next, patents on knives, especially for the lone custom maker, is simply not worth it.

As far as folks "copying" knives or ideas, it is what it is. Most respectable knifemakers have a good moral compass.

An example is when Tom Ferry brought the first bit of Timascus to show me (years ago)....he handed me this small cube of material, I felt the heft of it, and asked "Is this what I think it is? Titanium laminate?" He replied "Yes." I handed it back to him and told him I did not want to know ANYTHING about it until he had it all worked out and established as "his" product. As crazy as I am about laminating steel, I knew it would be hard for me to resist trying it if I asked any questions....and risk hard feelings and a friendship in the process.

Another example of "new" ideas are my EBKs. When I started producing those way back in 1997, nobody else was making anything like them.....a super simple small knife, with a horizontal kydex sheath for everyday carry. They quickly became my best selling knives, and over the next few years, I kept noticing that more and more makers were coming to shows with a similar sized knife. Some would take that as "they are copying my design!"....but I chose to take it as a compliment.

One individual comes to mind.....he had several knives on his table at a show that were VERY close to the pattern of my EBKs. I asked him about those knives, and what he called them. His response was...."Those are my ECROs". I looked at him with a questioning look and he said "Ed Caffrey Rip Offs!" Others might have gotten angry over that, but for me it was probably the nicest compliment that I had ever received from another maker. It's not about what you can "get" from the knife world...its about what you can GIVE. I was profoundly humbled to think that I had created something that my peers felt worthy of replicating. It's all about keeping things in perspective....knives are just "things", and in a hundred years nobody is going to remember any of the knives I produced, but if you create something that others feel worthy of replicating, it can have an impact on the entire craft forever.

We all tend to have our own "little secrets", but more often then not they are things that our experience and/or skill level allows us to do, and that others have either not though about yet, or their skill level hasn't brought them to that point in their careers. Those who hold tight to their "secrets" fall into one of two catagories......1. They are afraid that somebody is going to "take" what they have. or 2. They don't have anything on the "back burner" (they've locked themselves so tightly inside a "box", that they simply don't have any "new" ideas they want to try).
 
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Anthony, Ed has summed it up so nicely - is this new "feature" something that will be hidden once the knife is made and displayed? OR - will it not be visible with the first knife shown?

Good luck with it -

Ken H>
 
It's hidden. In fact, I've already shared pics of the knife on here, I just haven't pointed out the "secret" yet. I keep saying, and I'll say it again, this isn't anything ground moving, just something that I think is kind of original that I'd like to call my own. Ed, thanks for your thoughts, and I will say that I agree with you for the most part. I'm just having a selfish moment I guess.

Ken, on a side note, I finished my 14c28n blade. You're the one who brought that steel to my attention and all I can say is WOW! I really like it, it sharpened easily and is so sharp I don't even like handing it to someone without a warning! This is hands down my best work yet, but I haven't taken any pics yet. I'm currently trying my hand at leatherwork for the first time too. Opening day deer starts tomorrow here, so I've been kind of distracted. I'll try to get the camera out this weekend.
 
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Great advice from several seasoned makers here. I agree with them all. Something new in a fixed blade is fairly rare now days.

It's nearly impossible to patent a knife design. In fact, I'm pretty sure you can't. You can try and trademark a design but that will be limited to a very specific aspect and application like the Sypderco large round holes in their folders.

You will have to compete based on style, quality, fit, finish once your design hits the street. It can be done. Look at every major knife company in the world. Their bread and butter is not from unique patented designs or mechanisms. It's from basic knife designs with their own twist on them and good production process, distribution and marketing. The big knife companies don't necessarily make a better knife. They have a better process on fabrication, distribution and marketing than the other guys.
 
Great advice from several seasoned makers here. I agree with them all. Something new in a fixed blade is fairly rare now days.

It's nearly impossible to patent a knife design. In fact, I'm pretty sure you can't. You can try and trademark a design but that will be limited to a very specific aspect and application like the Sypderco large round holes in their folders.

You will have to compete based on style, quality, fit, finish once your design hits the street. It can be done. Look at every major knife company in the world. Their bread and butter is not from unique patented designs or mechanisms. It's from basic knife designs with their own twist on them and good production process, distribution and marketing. The big knife companies don't necessarily make a better knife. They have a better process on fabrication, distribution and marketing than the other guys.

One of my recent knives had a hole in the quillion right behind the choil. No sooner did I post a pic on another site and someone came to me screaming that I was infringing on Busse's patent for that hole. I started looking around and it appears that he will actually go after those that use that design and even encouraged others to let him know when people did it so he can send them a cease and desist. I just did it for a functional hole for my personal knife and wasn't even aware of his stuff. I won't get into the argument about whether that should be patentable or not (other than to say it seems like patenting a drop point if you ask me), but he does actually have it. At that point I lost all respect for anything that guy does.
 
my google mojo is weak when searching for patents. Can anyone find that exact Busse patent online?
 
OK, This is from an old post (2012) on bladeforums Jerry posted. The hole is a trademark, not a patent. It is up to the trademark holder (and patent holder for that matter) to make an effort to defend their trademark or they lose it. Also, the exact details of the trademark use in this case is not entirely clear. You can't just trademark a hole in a blade and call it yours. There has to be other conditions that define the trademark. Even then, the trademark infringement has to be proven in court.


Jerry Busse
Moderator
Join Date
Aug 1999
Location
Wauseon, OHPosts9,068
We have an incontestable trademark on the guard hole.

We never tried to patent it.

What is an incontestable trademark?

Once a trademark has been federally registered for five years, the owner of that mark can file an affidavit with the Patent and Trademark Office noting that the mark has been registered for five years and that the owner has continually used the mark for that five year period. Following the filing of this affidavit, the trademark becomes incontestable. Once a trademark is incontestable, certain things cannot be challenged in any later infringement action, including the mark’s validity, registration or ownership. Thus, in an infringement action involving an incontestable trademark, the other party cannot attempt to argue that the incontestable trademark is invalid and should not have been registered in the first place.
Hope that helps,
Jerry
 
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A long time ago, I checked into trademarking something and it cost a few dollars, seems like around $1000. Less involved than the patent process I think, but the average Joe would still need to hire a trademark attorney. How about your maker's mark? Do any of you have an official legal trademark on that?
 
Looks like Busse obtained this back in 2000.http://trademarks.justia.com/761/72/n-a-76172212.html
There looks to be a past challenge by Case in 2002.http://www.plainsite.org/dockets/o5...wr-case-and-sons-cutlery-co-v-busse-knife-co/
They apparently got, and actively uphold, their trademark of the guard hole, as well as the name "(Busse) combat" and other features of their knives.
Apparently the cost, time and effort to manage this trademark is worth while for them.
On one hand it would be pretty cool to be able to trademark a feature of your knives that no one else could copy, but on the other it seems a bit unfair to trademark a functional component of a blade- but they did it legally anyway, as "Talon holes" have been common before Busse trademarked them, and they are a feature required in cutting competitions for safety. Business is business!
 
Anthony,
The best thing you can do is to GET Her DONE! Be the first one out there and build your market exposure with your name and this impoved mouse trap of yours. I have my Pinch grip butterfly pattern on some of my culinary knives and have a provisional patent in the works.

The problem really is that if a LARGE company were to start copying it. What really matters is do I have the money etc to fight it in court?
They could bury me in legal costs.

Same thing with my Rhino Finger Skins which by the way I have a new and improved version that will be out in the next few weeks along with bigger sizes for sausage fingered makers!

So getting it to market NOW is the best start. By the way, I am looking to expand my line of options, so when can I see it? :biggrin:
 
Ken, on a side note, I finished my 14c28n blade.....

Happy to help, that stuff is good - I'll be looking forward to your photos.

I'd really like to try some of the other SS materials, but Sandvik has been so good for me, it's hard to try anything else. I expect some of the really high dollar steels would (might?) be better, but for the same price point, I seriously doubt anything is going to equal 14C28N, much less pass it. For kitchen type knives, folders, etc.

Again I thank Rex for telling me about Sandvik, and Calvin for pointing me to 14C28N.

Ken H>
 
I think along the same lines as Laurence in laying the ground work, build a base for your work with this feature included. If your knives are well executed, the feature itself will become associated with the knives you produce. In time it can become synonymous with your work. I believe a patent is only worthwhile, not so much if you can afford to defend it, which I personally cannot, but if it is something that is singular or, as in your case, thought of as an extension of your name or the name you market under.
Enjoy the work itself, Fred
 
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