Top three mistakes rookies make,,,
- Thread starter Grouser
- Start date
John Wilson
Well-Known Member
1. chasing the grind line instead of creating a flat bevel to begin with
2. not considering flatness when drilling scales
3. trying to do everything on the grinder (avoidance of hand work)
2. not considering flatness when drilling scales
3. trying to do everything on the grinder (avoidance of hand work)
Daniel Macina
Well-Known Member
Not buying quality equipment from the getgo. That’s all I’ve got for now because that’s about as far as I’ve made it. Lol.
Gene Kimmi
KNIFE MAKER
Not doing enough research. There is a lot of misinformation out there on knife making, especially on social media. To me, this is one of the best sites to learn from. There are many knowledgeable makers here who are willing to answer questions and help the new makers out.
Another is the American Bladesmith Society forum, and you can't overlook Kevin Cashen's site for heat treating.
Another is the American Bladesmith Society forum, and you can't overlook Kevin Cashen's site for heat treating.
John Wilson
Well-Known Member
and using 5 min epoxy only to discover you put one scale on backwards/upside down- and try to pull it all apart as the glue is setting
I may not be qualified to comment here, I am an admitted rank beginner as well, but here goes.
1- Doing to much with designs. In the beginning keep it simple. A good functional knife should be the goal, not some crazy design you’ve never seen. The day will come when new design elements and the accompanying skills will be achievable. In the beginning stick with proven designs, and build the skills to create from there. Don’t try and reinvent the wheel right out of the gate.
2- Don’t shy away from handwork. Files and some elbow grease and sandpaper, will improve your overall craftsmanship. Believe me you won’t leave 36 grit belt scratches on a knife more than once if you have to sand them out by hand. Learning to recognize, and correct prior to moving on to a finer grit belt is key. Also those skills learned earlier will be invaluable when you move on to harder skills that require hand work.
3- Pick a genre of blade that applies to your life and stick with it for a while. If your a hunter and you make hunting knives you will learn quicker what works for you and what doesn’t. Also going from a 6” hunter, to a tanto, to a giant sword, then a chef knife, will only price to frustrate. Develop your skill set on one type of knife, and move out from there.
1- Doing to much with designs. In the beginning keep it simple. A good functional knife should be the goal, not some crazy design you’ve never seen. The day will come when new design elements and the accompanying skills will be achievable. In the beginning stick with proven designs, and build the skills to create from there. Don’t try and reinvent the wheel right out of the gate.
2- Don’t shy away from handwork. Files and some elbow grease and sandpaper, will improve your overall craftsmanship. Believe me you won’t leave 36 grit belt scratches on a knife more than once if you have to sand them out by hand. Learning to recognize, and correct prior to moving on to a finer grit belt is key. Also those skills learned earlier will be invaluable when you move on to harder skills that require hand work.
3- Pick a genre of blade that applies to your life and stick with it for a while. If your a hunter and you make hunting knives you will learn quicker what works for you and what doesn’t. Also going from a 6” hunter, to a tanto, to a giant sword, then a chef knife, will only price to frustrate. Develop your skill set on one type of knife, and move out from there.
John Wilson
Well-Known Member
Chris Railey
Well-Known Member
This is more of a do than do not. Get a Fred Rowe bubble jig to help you learn grinding. You will develop correct muscle memory much quicker that way I promise. The jig comes with a great file guide, use it. No I do not get any money from Fred its just a great tool. I will also +1 what Kev said as I think I did the exact opposite in the begining.
Nick Riggi
Well-Known Member
1. Trying to get it done too fast
2. Making a knife design that is not "beginner friendly"
3. Not using a jig. Nothing wrong with them- they only hold the desired angle- you still need to provide the speed and pressure control.
My jig demo:
Jig use and demo
2. Making a knife design that is not "beginner friendly"
3. Not using a jig. Nothing wrong with them- they only hold the desired angle- you still need to provide the speed and pressure control.
My jig demo:
Jig use and demo
Attachments
Grouser
Well-Known Member
good job on video I enjoyed it. I do have some Jigs and guides that I use but just can't get my head wrapped around how to use them on curved or recurve blades. Maybe I'm a working above my skill level?
Chris Railey
Well-Known Member
Many "special grinds or designs" are done freehand and jigs will not replicate those grinds is some cases. If you ever try to grind a Karambit you will know what I mean. The freehand grinds can be a bear to learn in my opinion.
Grouser
Well-Known Member
Kevin R. Cashen
Super Moderator
Thanks for the kind words Gene, for both of those sites, as my responsbilities to the ABS forum increase I am having a harder time telling one from the other.
As for my vote for the number one mistake, and I may sound like a broken record, but I have learned from my mistakes and many other makers I have worked with- not resisting the temptation of starting out with scrap or mystery steel.
I almost don't need another two because, hands down, if I could do one thing to set any new maker on the path to excellence it would be to cure them of the all too common desire to hamstring their learning with the false idea that they are saving (money, time etc..) on "free", or cheap, scrap steel. In the long run, free or cheap scrap mystery steel will cost a maker more than fossil ivory.
Grouser
Well-Known Member
do you consider leaf spring steel to be inferior? it's considered 5160 I think for American manufacturers. Not bucking your advice, it's just what I have a lot of.
Chris Railey
Well-Known Member
Kevin will answer with much better info than me but I will get you started down that road. In actuality, not all, if not most leaf springs are not really 5160 at all. There are many different types of steel used in springs of all kinds and it is impossible to know which one you are dealing with unless you have some way to get the type from the manufacturer or you have the ability to do some kind of analysis of its composition,. The reason this is important in making blades is because different kinds of steel require different heat treating protocols and to get the best performance out of them you need to know exactly what steel you have and the HT protocol for that steel. You also need to be able to follow that HT protocol. The only reason I do not work with AEB-L stainless is because I lack the tools to properly HT it. You get the idea. The other main reason most custom knife makers will avoid leaf springs is because they may contain micro cracks and problems you cannot see therefore all of your hard work may be compromised from the beginning by using re-purposed steel. Let's face it, in most cases ,you got those springs because someone replaced them for a reason and discarded the old ones. Here is where my opinion will differ from others on this site. If your goal is to practice forging blades to shape, tapering, beveling, forging finger wells etc. I think re-purposed steel is good for that because it is free. When you want to make a complete blade it is always going to be better to start with a known steel and HT protocol. This is just MY opinion it is OK if people disagree with me...its not personal. All of that being said I am also a hobby blacksmith so I have made many of my own tools. I have used re-purposed springs for drifts and punches and things. It does not apply to knife making, but I feel like I should give full disclosure that if you visit my shop you will see a material storage piles containing some old springs.
Kevin R. Cashen
Super Moderator
Thank you, Chris. What Chris said about a certain item automatically equaling a certain alloy is very much my position as well, and this situation is only getting more true as time goes on and manufacturers find more cost effective ways of producing those items. But it goes so far beyond this in complicating working the steel.
To give you an idea of how tricky it can be, back in the early 80’s, when I was starting out, I too was bitten by the scrap steel bug that is almost universal among new makers, I later realized how much time, effort and supplies I sacrificed to that huge wrench in my learning curve. After that, I have always worked with the best, known steel that just a few bucks will buy (the steel really is the cheapest part of the entire knife).
But even working with a brand new bar of steel, all pretty, clean and labeled, slight deviations in the chemistry would occasionally have me troubleshooting my heat treatment. For the past couple of years, I have been buried in research and testing of the most common bladesmithing steels to develop guides to the way we work them, and until now I really had no idea how critical this is. In my research I have lost months of lab time when even that shiny, labeled, bar of steel turned out not to match the chemistry I thought it was. So, I now only buy steel that includes the spec sheets, and analysis of that specific batch.
But let’s say you spend the $100 to a zap a spectral on that scrap item, you now have the chemistry, but you are still missing things that can be just as critical. First, the spectral will only give you chemistry, it will not give you anything about the physical condition of the steel- inclusions, grain size, microstructure, or those very valid concerns Chris brought up about micro-defects from its previous life. What it also won’t give you is the thermal history on that piece of steel which has essentially made it what it is today, and that history will play a role in how you treat it and the outcome of those treatments. It is almost like alternate timelines in Science fiction. For the testing that I am doing, I can’t just do a batch of samples that are hardened and tempered using different methods, I have to do a batch for each of those methods that was normalized at several different temperatures and annealed with differing methods because each will respond differently to the temperature and time in the hardening heat. Eventually the number of possible paths of thermal history becomes infinite, and I am forced to settle on several of the most pragmatic ones.
Now, do I have a scrap pile out back? Sure I do. I use it for all kinds of forging practice and items that do not require a heat treatment. And now is also the time for me to include the same exception that I always do- there are times when the sentimental or historical significance of the piece outweighs the need to optimize the performance, e.g. a knife made from Grandpa’s favorite file, a blade made from World Trade Center steel, etc… I will also sometimes work with historical processes to produce historical materials, such as bloomery iron or blister steel, and while I still do a whole lot of lab work to know that material, it will never compete with a known, modern, alloy. But it doesn’t have to, its value is in another area.
Sorry about the long-winded reply but I wanted to clarify the specific do’s and don’ts I was suggesting. I also apologize for hi-jacking a thread that should be about any number of helpful tips rather than my over worded concerns.
To give you an idea of how tricky it can be, back in the early 80’s, when I was starting out, I too was bitten by the scrap steel bug that is almost universal among new makers, I later realized how much time, effort and supplies I sacrificed to that huge wrench in my learning curve. After that, I have always worked with the best, known steel that just a few bucks will buy (the steel really is the cheapest part of the entire knife).
But even working with a brand new bar of steel, all pretty, clean and labeled, slight deviations in the chemistry would occasionally have me troubleshooting my heat treatment. For the past couple of years, I have been buried in research and testing of the most common bladesmithing steels to develop guides to the way we work them, and until now I really had no idea how critical this is. In my research I have lost months of lab time when even that shiny, labeled, bar of steel turned out not to match the chemistry I thought it was. So, I now only buy steel that includes the spec sheets, and analysis of that specific batch.
But let’s say you spend the $100 to a zap a spectral on that scrap item, you now have the chemistry, but you are still missing things that can be just as critical. First, the spectral will only give you chemistry, it will not give you anything about the physical condition of the steel- inclusions, grain size, microstructure, or those very valid concerns Chris brought up about micro-defects from its previous life. What it also won’t give you is the thermal history on that piece of steel which has essentially made it what it is today, and that history will play a role in how you treat it and the outcome of those treatments. It is almost like alternate timelines in Science fiction. For the testing that I am doing, I can’t just do a batch of samples that are hardened and tempered using different methods, I have to do a batch for each of those methods that was normalized at several different temperatures and annealed with differing methods because each will respond differently to the temperature and time in the hardening heat. Eventually the number of possible paths of thermal history becomes infinite, and I am forced to settle on several of the most pragmatic ones.
Now, do I have a scrap pile out back? Sure I do. I use it for all kinds of forging practice and items that do not require a heat treatment. And now is also the time for me to include the same exception that I always do- there are times when the sentimental or historical significance of the piece outweighs the need to optimize the performance, e.g. a knife made from Grandpa’s favorite file, a blade made from World Trade Center steel, etc… I will also sometimes work with historical processes to produce historical materials, such as bloomery iron or blister steel, and while I still do a whole lot of lab work to know that material, it will never compete with a known, modern, alloy. But it doesn’t have to, its value is in another area.
Sorry about the long-winded reply but I wanted to clarify the specific do’s and don’ts I was suggesting. I also apologize for hi-jacking a thread that should be about any number of helpful tips rather than my over worded concerns.
John Wilson
Well-Known Member
Kevin, on the contrary. I can think of no better place for your information than a thread aimed at putting new makers on the right track. The warnings against mystery metal, and why, should be listed right below “don’t stick your fingers in the bandsaw”. Very often, the hardest obstacle to overcome as a maker is not a lack of knowledge, but overcoming a preconceived ingrained mindset.