Some ‘Smith logic I’m speaking on.

O

One Armed

Well-Known Member
This has been on my mind quite some time. I think most know, but I’ll say just in case. I’m not a Smith. I have use of only my right arm/hand..my left being 100% paralyzed. And while I’ve given it a thought, just more problematic tool than I’d like to dabble in. I’m a knife Maker. I’m not an artist. I make super high performance knives for what they can do. And while I do sell, I’m not doing it for money. It’s a passion...a hobby. I sell knives to basically feed the habit. Keep me in supplies, what not. That said, I warranty every knife. I do not make knives AS a profession, but I DO make knives professionally! My Warranty stands, “If any knife fails due to use OR abuse, it’s covered.... If the blade is cut in half with a torch, IT’S COVERED!” One of my long time patrons told me the other day he was “testing” one of the knives I made him by pounding the blade deep in a tree and standing on it. Then forcing his weight down onto the handle. LOL! But I digress.

Although I am not a Smith in practice, I have studied it’s aspects for years. I research about every aspect as if I were a Knifesmith. Being disabled and in pain every day affords quite ample time for research. I truly would love to delve into the practice, just for the fun of it. And I can absolutely appreciate the artistry at work. But through my years of research, there have been some things I’ve found to be well, folklore being a nice way of putting it. I’ve found in recent years, some of these aspects have made there way into the firearms industry. Although simply a knife MAKER, I am in fact a Gun-Smith. Again, just as hobby not profession. My concern is with the very thing that makes a knifesmith just that...the Forging.

I’m sure as many others were, I also was quite smitten with stories of the legendary “Samurai” Swords. Made from an Other Worldly Steel FORGED & Folded by a man with Super Human ability! These blades could cut through anything, and were unbreakable! I remember thinking these things as a child. But I didn’t make any of this up in my mind. These were things I would hear from movies, television programs and the odd documentary here & there throughout the 80’s & early 90’s. We were fed these lines from the program creators, passed to them by none other than a ‘Smith or two. I know this now, because I’ve heard it directly from the horse’s mouth... not all..but there are a few who actually buy into their own rhetoric. Passed down to them by ‘Smiths who believed it before them! As I had said, I have seen it also in the firearms world. The AR15 market specifically. There are a select of ignorant who are believing & spreading around that the CHF (Cold Hammer Forged) barrels also posses these “Other Worldly” traits. Accuracy beyond any other...strength & longer lasting abilities, etc, etc.... Even a particular barrel maker in California who is silently agreeing, saying that CHF barrels are more difficult to cut when working on them. Uhhh..yes...I would absolutely expect that of WORK HARDENED metal.

At the heart is the false belief that anything forged is being compacted. Sure! If you start with a Cast piece of material... or material with many air voids. (Wait...isn’t that the same as Cast?) This was all fine and good many, many, MANY years ago... Steel used to be CRAP! Forging & folding was necessary. I actually LOVE now this WAR among smiths on true Damascus(Wootz) & pattern welded or folded. I’ve heard the arguments between traditional Japanese style ‘Smiths & European ‘Smiths. Funny stuff. “Wootz is the ONLY way to have super clean & homogeneous steel!” Vs. “NO! Forging & Folding will drive out virtually ALL the impurities, giving the same clean steel as Crucible! Wootz has too much Phosphorus& Sulfur in it...my TAMAHAGANE is TRUE Super Steel..BANZAI!” Which is extra funny when it’s a white guy claiming to be the 17th ishimi hucuda clam blacksmith, or whatever! (Cough-cough! Murray Carter, cough-cough) So, modern steel as I get it, has already been FORGED! I keep telling people this. You can’t Forge something extra. When steel it made, it is sized down in either a GIANT hydrologic press, or roller system(which also presses the steel) It’s interesting how many out there don’t understand the process of steel being forced through these heavy roller systems as being a method of FORGING! So when I order a bar of my favorite CPM3V from Tracey(who I believe gets it from Niagara??), or from Admiral like I just did....those bars come PRE forged. No amount of me or anyone else pounding on it is going to somehow compress the material into a tighter space...like it’s a freakin’ Neutron Star or something! Aye Vey!

As I’ve said, I sincerely respect the artistry, beauty and the fine knives that forging brings. I know many of you love your Simple Carbons... the 1075/1080, 1084, 1095, White, Blue and others with the low alloy carbons like 5160, 52100, O1, A2, etc. None of these are my picks. I prefer to use High Alloy, Powder Metals (CPMs). They are the driving material behind ALL high performance blades on the market. When I’ve been asked why people don’t Forge these steels, my answer is “Because you can heat these steels super hot, pound them with your sledge hammer & they will LAUGH at you!” LOL! Obviously, 3V has been forged by a few. Although I know it’s not the easiest... and there has been absolutely NO evidence that forging CPM3V offers a better blade. In fact, there has been some say that it actually loses something from the many, many re-heats needed. So to the end, the material has actually lost a some edge holding vs it’s toughness. Again though, no proof of either exists.

Hope I didn’t hurt any feelings here. Not my intention. If I did, well...I’m sure I’ll get over it in the morning. Honestly, these are simply my points of view (with a whole BUTT LOAD of evidence supporting my points). I don’t just say things. When I do, I’ve researched the topic through & through. I truly hope my giving points of view doesn’t anger anyone. But if it does... well, you’re probably a Democrat and your life is very unhappy anyway.

Who else is Covid-sham board?
 
CPM and ingot steels are about as dissimilar as they can be and still be called steel.

The idea behind powdered steel is to start in an ideal condition. The high carbide volumes are, practically speaking, unmanageable when poured as an ingot. So it stands to reason that unnecessary manipulation could only serve to degrade the material. This is not the case with conventional ingot steel. The carbides pool up during the melt, and further manipulation through rolling serves to refine and distribute those carbides. It is that particular fact that most folks, be they stock remover or forging bladesmith, get hung up on. There seems to be no reasonable middle ground.

Steel mills don't necessarily put out steels in a condition that are ideal for heat treating for knives with respect to typically forged low to mid alloy steels. It is true that many times steel condition can, in fact, be improved with careful, proper forging. This is especially true for heat treating response. Some are nearly unhardenable in the condition in which they are received.

So in summary, just because a hammer doesn't impart magical qualities on a piece of steel doesn't mean there can be no benefits. Just like a cold hammer forged barrel isn't superior because of the process it undergoes to become a barrel, it is superior because of the properties that can be imparted through a process that cannot be obtained through a different process. (Specifically, tighter tolerances, and a smoother and straighter bore.)
 
David, I think what you're saying in your OP is so much of the myths around forging are just that, myths.

I'm not a mind reader so have no idea what Daniel's thinking truly was when he wrote the post, but from reading I would think he's saying this argument of "forged vs "stock removal" comes up a couple times per year. From his comment "I laugh every time this argument pops up", I'm not at all sure which side he is on, but my biased thinking caused me to think Daniel thought the same as you do. Again, not trying to put words in Daniel's mouth, that was my first impression on reading for first time. After reading a couple of times, I realize I don't really have a clue what Daniel thinks about the "forged vs "stock removal" argument. He laughs about it, but not sure which side he's on.

Larrin does a GREAT job of presenting evidence on the discussion here: https://knifesteelnerds.com/2019/07/22/forged-vs-stock-removal-knives/
 
Last edited:
I see your point Ken. And if anyone is thinking that, please let me say the Forging vs Stock removal was not part of my thinking during writing. It’s as you said Ken..thank you. I just think “Myth & Legend” should remain in the fiction side of things.

Example: I watched videos many years ago & from more recent times of a well known Knifesmith who has been using Blue & White steel for a long time. His initial belief was Blue steel will give great results if certain guidelines are followed. While White steel will give a limitless performance based on the experience of the Smith. Now he believes that the steel used is virtually a non issue. That it’s the Smith’s knowledge that which is key. Citing even that his “mastery” of forging can even make substandard material have AMAZING performance.

This is a man who believes wholeheartedly in myth & legend! He believes his forging ability is imparting some kind of magical response of from the steel. Keep it in the fantasy there “Dark Elf Wizard”! I mean Japanese Wizard of course!
 
One Armed said:
Why would one waste the time to reply that in a quite rude attempt at undermining a person’s thread. Distasteful and very telling of poor character. Precisely why I’ve had this person on my Ignore list for a long time!

Oh well, I believe most children’s minds have quite short attention spends..:)
Click to expand...
Then why, pray tell, are you responding ?
 
One Armed said:
Why would one waste the time to reply that in a quite rude attempt at undermining a person’s thread. Distasteful and very telling of poor character. Precisely why I’ve had this person on my Ignore list for a long time!

Oh well, I believe most children’s minds have quite short attention spends..:)
Click to expand...

Well I could be more direct.

It was a polite subtle attempt to remind the OP that some of us have been around long enough to recognize this post for what it is, albeit in a much more subtle and passive-aggressive form than usual.....speaking of poor character.

I read the post actually. My takeaway, in summary, was that the OP has an inferiority complex and steel snob, stock removal snob mindset that must be justified by tearing down other steels and methods that he, for unknown reasons, deems threatening.

I did take note of the hypocrisy where the OP seems offended by my "rude" post but chose to finish this post I quoted with name calling.....which by the way I couldn't care less and am not offended.

You should post this over on bladeforums also....where a lot of this nonsense happens and you would have far more support.......oh wait.....that might be problematic for you, huh?
 
As to the myths of forging, they're becoming far less common than they once were thanks to the tireless efforts of several knowledgeable and scientific driven smiths, Kevin Cashen being at the very top of the list.
 
Just to be clear I have nothing against CPM Steels I just don’t think they’re the answer to everything like some people think. A lot of the people I would sell to once I felt my quality was good enough would not want the price tag those steals come with and would never be able to sharpen those. many of my customer base are Hunters that want some thing that is quick and easy to sharpen in the field. If you want do use those steels go for it but there’s no need to be obnoxious about it. Plus there was no need for the original post in the first place nobody gained anything by it and there was no pathway for a genuine conversation. it Was just the OP trolling I believe.

I’m done. I’m genuinely not trying to be nasty but this pops up every now and then and I’m getting sick of it.
 
One Armed said:
No, actually what I’ve found it’s a hoot spiders web. A couple people were quoted who were already on my ignore list. And this has attracted a couple more who now are. So... I thank you for showing me you have absolutely nothing I want to read. Take care!

And for the record... posting in someone else’s thread with content because you are angry with the topic, IS the definition of trolling. Now please stay out of my threads.
Click to expand...

So you post a topic, and anyone who doesn't agree with what you posted gets put on ignore? That doesnt sound like someone who is interested in sharing and being part of a discussion community.

Your understanding of trolling is way off the mark.

And unfortunately for you, you don't get to decide who posts what in what thread.

If you dont want people posting things contrary to you, maybe just stop posting?
 
J. Doyle said:
Well I could be more direct.

It was a polite subtle attempt to remind the OP that some of us have been around long enough to recognize this post for what it is, albeit in a much more subtle and passive-aggressive form than usual.....speaking of poor character.

I read the post actually. My takeaway, in summary, was that the OP has an inferiority complex and steel snob, stock removal snob mindset that must be justified by tearing down other steels and methods that he, for unknown reasons, deems threatening.

I did take note of the hypocrisy where the OP seems offended by my "rude" post but chose to finish this post I quoted with name calling.....which by the way I couldn't care less and am not offended.

You should post this over on bladeforums also....where a lot of this nonsense happens and you would have far more support.......oh wait.....that might be problematic for you, huh?
Click to expand...

Well spoken.
it's the same old CM3V blah blah....I'll be honest, I'll never use that steel, only because it will remind me every time I look at it or touch it of all the praise and glorification of it coming from this source.
Everybody has a couple favorite steels they use, but this whole conversation is over the top. there's a problem somewhere.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top