So I got this question...........?

C Craft

C Craft

Well-Known Member
Not sure if this is the proper place to put this, so mods feel free to move it if necessary!

I consider myself a newbie and a part timer in the knife making business. However in another life I did a lot of carpentry and custom furniture making, as well as all other aspects of construction and I consider myself to have a pretty good eye!

So having said that I will try to give a little background to the question. I recently saw a knife on another forum that I consider had a "looks flaw". Let me explain that a little more. A design flaw would be something that would make the knife dangerous or improper functionality. However a "looks flaw", effects nothing but the final looks of the knife!


The knife was made my a maker I am not really familiar with but I think he has more experience than I. The responses to the post were all good and some even heaped on the praise. Over all the design and the shape of the knife was spot on, as well was the workmanship. However it seemed if the maker failed to mill down the handle to fit to the size of the ferule. Perhaps this was done to create a step down effect, I am not sure. To me it looked out of place and spoiled an other wise perfect piece. The maker did not seem to be asking for a critique on his knife.


In my case I chose to not mention what I felt was a glaring flaw. I chalked it up to a difference in opinion or view but, it has kind of bugged me since then. No, I am not going to go back and post a scathing rant about how I though he should have done this or that, in fact I have no intention of posting anything else on the thread!


So here is the question. Do you speak of the elephant in the room or do you just let him go on with the broccoli between his teeth. :les:
 
I don't know how big the "step down" or "reveal" from the handle to the ferrule was but its perfectly acceptable to have a bit of a diameter difference between the two. As long as the handle material is nicely rounded/chamfered then even as much a 1/16" is fine. Some people even prefer this look and feel. If it was much bigger than 1/16" or not evenly chamfered then I may consider it a flaw. I would have to actually see it to make the call. And don't forget that things like that are subjective and what one person considers perfectly acceptable another may consider a flaw. Kind of an "eye of the beholder" thing.
 
I think a good rule of thumb here is to just let it go, unless you are specifically asked by the maker.

One of the things that happens to me (because of the MS rating) is that I always have folks asking me "Will you take a look at my knives?" Over time I have learned to ask the question....."Do you want me to "look" at your knives, or do you want me to "critique" them?"
If I "look" at your knives, I am going to be as nice as possible, and only point out the good things. On the other hand, if you want me to "critique" your knives, then I will evaluate them as if I were judging them for the JS on MS test.

Many folks will post knives on fourms, hoping to get praise, to reaffirm themselves. And let's face it, it does feel good when people give you kudos for your work. But to offer an unsolicitated "critique" is only asking for hard feelings, and who knows what else. My policy is that unless I'm specifally, and directly asked, I go by the rule...If you can't say something nice.....don't say anything at all.
 
Well, with out a doubt I have let my mouth open more than it should about that herd of Elephants in the room and am trying to curtail such behaviors.

I am not a MS or anything close but I do have local makers that are newer than I come by the shop and I am always glad to help when I can.
I try to construct the critique as positive as possible with phrases like, On you next knife, try to get your ........
 
I don't know how big the 'step' is that you're talking about. I can't imagine that it was too drastic but as long as it's neat, well done, and looks intentional, then I have no problem with it.

I do it on most knives these days. I have come to prefer the looks of the handle material being proud to the fittings but there is also a really good technical reason for doing so.

How many times have you felt a knife of your own or someone else's that was more than a year old or so. Take your thumbnail and feel the transition from metal fittings to wood handle. More often than not, your nail will catch on either the edge of the fittings or the wood handle because the handle has either shrunk or swelled a little.

By leaving the handle material proud, that makes the slight shrinking or swelling of the handle a total non issue.....forever. I'm all about non issues. ;)

The caveat to this is that it needs to be even and well done. I roll the edges of my transition so it looks intentional. If you leave that corner sharp and square......then it very well may look unfinished.

I have no idea if you were talking about my knife or not but I'll say now that comments about my knives are ALWAYS welcome and encouraged, good, bad or otherwise. I usually say that in my posts.

Here's an example of how I do mine:

 
I try to make a distinction between style and craftsmanship. Many styles will not appeal to you but will be executed flawlessly. Other times you see a knife that has a style you like but the maker still has a way to go on skills. If I like the style I compliment it, if I think the craftsmanship is excellent I compliment it. I view the pics posted in this forum somewhat like a proud papa showing his newborn for the first time. No one needs to hear, "what an ugly baby....". Any tiny flaws on a knife the maker has probably all ready anguished over. There are so many seasoned makers working at close to perfection here that a less experienced maker only need to look to see where improvements need to be made.

So, most need some encouragement and probably aren't looking for criticism/critique. The ones that are will clearly ask for it. I don't feel a comment like "here's my latest...whaddya think...?" is asking for critique. It more a "I've just spent x amount of days working on this and I'm hoping you all see what I was trying to express in my work".

Just my inexperienced opinion....


(J Doyle....that knife would be one of those "close to perfection" knives I was talking about!)
 
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OK guys, just thought I would throw this out there and see what stuck to the wall, :biggrin: so to speak. I had no intention of saying anything! I am not going to mention names or post any photo's. I wasn't looking to bash someone!

Like Ed said I don't really think he was looking for critique, so...........it would have probably led to bad feelings. I often refer back to the old saying, if you can't say something nice then don't say it all"!


No it was not one of J Doyle's knives that I was referring to! A step like the one you have on the pictured knife looks fine too me!

However the step on this particular knife, was like an 1/8"+, squared off and that is what made it so glaringly out of place! IMO

Their was several shots of the knife, one from the side and that is where I first picked up the size/amount of the step. Then another pic from slightly to one side but almost front on, showed the size of the step and it confirmed what I was seeing was not a optical illusion but, that the step was quite large. I studied it for a minute and thought to myself, well at least it was done consistently so I don't think it was an accident.

However I just couldn't get over that bad taste it left in my mouth, that it was the only flaw to a generally otherwise perfect knife! On that note, I agree with smallshop, and I see things all the time, that are just a different style or maybe the whole piece doesn't appeal to me but you can see the quality work that was put into the piece and/or the sheath. I will often say, "while not my cup of tea", I can easily see the hard work put into the knife/sheath and can see you have great potential in what you are doing!

When I first got into knife making, I use to be part of another forum. There were several others on their that had absolutely no problem, with critiquing a knife to the point of a bashing, even when no one was asking for a critique. I was new so didn't say much at the time but I have always reminded myself of how that felt, when it comes to looking at another person's knife, or a newbie asking a question!

I guess what I am trying to say in all this is pretty much what others have said. I usually won't post anything unless asked, "what do you think of it"? And even then I try to make a suggestion in such a way that is not demeaning or belittling. Sometimes I just get these thoughts/questions in my head and while not looking for a definitive answer to the question, I just want to see what others are thinking on the subject!:les:

After all, others in knife making have been so kind as to impart knowledge to me along the way and plus I have learned a few things on my own. So if I can give back I try!:3:
 
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From what you describe, it sounds like I would agree with you on being a distraction. You were probably best not to mention it. I try to not say too much about what's wrong (usually :D), unless specifically asked for.

I like to try to find something positive I actually like if I'm going to comment. I don't believe in saying something is nice or appealing to me if it isn't. So if I really can't find anything to say that's positive, I generally don't comment.

Smallshop- your post was well written and shows a lot of diplomacy and wisdom.
 
Strange, I was thinking about this very topic while out mowing the lawn today. Here are my conclusions. As a relatively new maker myself it is always nice to hear words of encouragement. However I'm not seven years old anymore and if I make something that is full of design flaws, poor workmanship, or otherwise flawed I want to know about it. "That looks nice" is usually followed by "now run along and play" LOL. Constructive criticism is a necessary element of progress in any endeavor. Many times people view it as harsh or derogatory due to their own inadequacies or lack of confidence and experience. I know from experience in other public venues that I would much rather hear it here than at my table at a show!! This forum is an excellent resource full of information and excellent craftsman willing to share some of their expertise. I am all ears. If it's ugly and stupid, please tell me, but tell me why so I can do better next time. My goal is to make great knives. I fear there a a lot of mediocre ones to wade through first, lol.
 
Jon, I agree I want to hear the truth however the truth can be brutal to a new maker. You see I am ole tough skinned SOB but there is no sense in treating me like I am a DA! Because I am not! The time period I was referring to in my first post I was just new to the block. Sometimes if you bend down along the way to help out a new maker, maybe this approach would put him on a good road to be a productive knife maker.

We all have it in ourselves to be the jerk, to put it nicely, however sometimes we have to look into our selves to find the part that can guide others, instead of demean others! I worked as a carpenter from the age of 14 and I never minded answering a question no matter how ridiculous it may have sounded. I knew my stuff in that field but I am still learning in this one.

I will give you an example. I saw a knife on another forum it was functional and fairly well done for the 1st knife this man had posted! He asked what everyone thought about it. There had been 60+ views when I saw the thread, not one reply. I am going to make a guess as most just wrote it off as a bad first effort and not worth their time.

I looked at his avatar and saw this man was probably older than myself. I checked his profile and he was retired and was older than myself. I was always taught to respect my elders. I posted back to him that he had a very good first effort. However the blade may need a bit more polishing/sanding to get the marks out of it. This is a common mistake for beginners.
His handle was a good solid fit up and even had a little profile to it, however the edges were pretty much square. Another rookie mistake, so I suggested that he roll the edge of the handle on his next one.
I even went to the file I call my reference file and pulled a picture off of it , (which I always give credit to the Maker if I use their photo). I showed him one similar to his design with a profiled and rolled edge handle.

He messaged me back and said he was never good about being able to get a consistent roll to an edge. At first I thought he was pulling my leg and then I realized it did not use to be second nature to me and maybe this gentleman had never done much work using his hands before.
So I took the time to in detail explain what I was referring too. Now I could have told him how stupid he was and too grow up but,.............he was already grown and all I would have done is lower myself to a level that would have been demeaning to myself and him, plus I would have been of no help to someone just getting started!

OK end of story there. One of the reasons I brought this whole thing up is the maker of the knife I originally referred too, was more seasoned than I and everyone seemed to be praising what I was seeing as a flaw. I could have shown my ignorance by pointing out what I was seeing that it was a glaring flaw. Then I took a moment took think about it and thought it could be just a difference of opinion. Anyway I wanted to see what other folks thought about such a situation.

I want real critique when I put something up for a look see, I agree it is the only way sometimes you see what you missed. You just don't have to be a real live @$$ when you respond to someone! Enough said, I have shared my views and opinions and you can and will take it for what value you see in it........................or not!:biggrin:
 
Jon I agree I want to hear the truth however the truth can be brutal to a new maker. You see I am ole tough skinned SOB but there is no sense in treating me like I am a DA! Because I am not, I was at the time I was referring to just new to the block. Sometimes if you bend down along the way to help out a new maker, maybe this approach would put him on a good road to be a productive knife maker.

We all have it in ourselves to be the jerk, to put it nicely, however sometimes we have to look into our selves to find the part that can guide instead of demean! I worked as a carpenter from the age of 14 and I never minded answering a question no matter how ridiculous it may have sounded. I knew my stuff in that field but I am still learning in this one.

I will give you an example. I saw a knife on another forum it was functional and fairly well done for the 1st knife this man had posted! He asked what everyone thought about it. There had been 60+ views when I saw the thread, not one reply. I am going to make a guess as most just wrote it off as a bad first effort and not worth their time. I looked at his avatar and saw this man was probably older than myself. I checked his profile and he was retired and was older than myself. I was always taught to respect my elders. I posted back to him that he had a very good first effort. However the blade may need a bit more polishing/sanding to get the marks out of it. This is a common mistake for beginners. His handle was a good solid fit up and even had a little profile to it, however the edges were pretty much square. Another rookie mistake, so I suggested that he roll the edge of the handle on his next one. I even went to the file I call my reference file and pulled a picture off of it , (which I always give credit to the Maker if I use their photo). I showed him one similar to his design with a profiled and rolled edge handle. He messaged me back and said he was never good about being able to get a consistent roll to an edge.
At first I thought he was pulling my leg and then I realized that rolling an edge, did not use to be second nature to me and maybe this gentleman had never done much work using his hands before. So I took the time to in detail explain what I was referring too. Now I could have told him how stupid he was and too grow up but,.............he was already grown and all I would have done is lower myself to a level that would have been demeaning to myself and him!

OK end of story there. One of the reasons I brought this whole thing up is this maker was more seasoned than I and everyone seemed to be praising what I was seeing as a flaw. I could have shown my ignorance by pointing out what I was seeing and felt was a glaring flaw, however I am not sure it would have been taken well and I refereed back to what Mama, taught me, "If you can't say something nice don't say anything at all"!

It is kind of like an ole friend use to tell me. His dad asked him once, why he didn't like the little girl down the block who obviously liked him! He told his dad, "she wasn't pretty", his dad replied with, "son you can't judge a book by its cover". He stood there a second and said, "yes daddy but it is hard to read a book with an ugly cover"! Just a little humor to keep this whole thread a little lighter! :les::what!::biggrin::biggrin:
 
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Good double post C Craft! I like the ending of the second one better....LOL. Some of us shop rats turn into interesting books with real ugly covers....
 
:nothing: Well it was supposed to be an edit but there was a glitch when I was trying to do the edit. That is my story and I am sticking too it! I ain't crazzzzzzy yet! :noway: :biggrin:
 
Beauty is, in fact, in the eye of the beholder. Take those new Nissan "Cube" cars for instance.... hahah

That said, as both a maker and a user, my question would be whether the "visually irritating" step was also "functionally irritating" as well. Could it create a hot spot for the hand, or otherwise compromise ergonomics? Or was the knife made more as a show piece than a user?

Now, to the question of whether or not to mention it? I suppose if the maker didn't ask for critique, or otherwise indicate that questions and comments on this design were welcome, I would have just let it go. On the other hand, I've received certain critiques that weren't exactly asked for, and after listening to them and adjusting for them, they've made me a better knife maker.
 
Ed makes a great point in asking the difference between looking at a knife and critiquing it.

Most everyone that visits us here at the warehouse that makes a knife hands it to me to look at. I always do and I always say it's a nice one because they are. I know what that guy put into it and I know how proud they are of it and I'll be danged if I am going to say anything but nice things about it. The knife may not be on the level of craftsmanship of a master knife maker but it's pretty good for that guy and that matters.

If a maker asks me to critique a knife, it will always be just one and one and in private and only after we agree that he understands what he is asking for. It will always be the intent to suggest ways to "improve" the knife but critiques are tough to take? If someone doesn't ask for a critique, I never offer it.

Every knife forum has made multiple attempts to have a virtual pass around area where guys can post pictures and have others critique the knife. They all fail for a reason. No one wants to tear apart a knife in a public forum or critique a knife to a stranger via the internet. It's much too personal for that.
 
Good points Boss!

This is a true story! One of the first knives I made I showed to a fellow on the construction site. He proceeds to tell me that I need to show it too another fellow on the crew who was part owner in the company, he said "he makes knives too", however he wasn't around that day! So the next day I bring the knife back in.

The construction was solid, however the guard had been silver soldered on the blade and it was ill fit to begin with, so the silver solder showed badly. The handle was some black walnut from my fathers property. It was ill fitting against the guard and the wood had scorched around the rivets I had used.
The sheath was an old pliers pocket that I had picked up in the edge of the road. However I was proud as a peacock of the knife and its sheath!
I showed it to this other fellow who made knives and told him I understand you make some knives. He took the knife and looked it over, held it in his hand, and then he said. That looks like a real nice user! That wasn't exactly what I expected but I felt it was a compliment.

A couple of days went by and he brings in some of his knives. I looked them over and Wow was about all I could mutter, I realized right away that they were light years above the knife I handed to him and asked, "what you think"! He proceeded to show me a picture album with a lot of pictures of knives he had made and some pictures of him and a few guys. Then I read what is printed under one of the photos and realize this man made MS, 12 yrs. before that year, that was back in the early 90's.

I felt almost like I needed to apologize for the knife I had him to look at because, his work and mine weren't even in the same light year! I said, "wow you must have thought my knife looked like $*#@% along side your work, your work is fantastic"!

This is what he told me, "nonsense when I said yours was a good user, I meant you had designed your knife to be used, not just looked at. I said, "yes but the fit and finish is not even close to one of yours"! He said, "that is something that will improve with each and every one you build"! He the told me, "most folks who buy my knives are collectors, they will be put away and never used"!

I realized much later that "a good user" was about the nicest thing he could say about the monstrosity that I handed him. Yes truly it was a good user as I skinned several deer with it but the fit and finish always bugged me, and I eventually rehandled it!

He could have given me an entire critique that would have been scathing, instead he left my ego in tact and enough information to know what to be looking for when I made the next one and the next one and so on! Basically he was the one that put me on this path that I am on now, and I have never forgotten how he handled the situation!
 
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