Re heat treat 1095

MikeL

KNIFE MAKER
I heat treated 1095 bar stock using my paragon. So temperature control was not the issue. Quenched in parks 50. Seemed to be hard with the file test so I did the two temper cycles. However, after doing some grinding, I now feel like it’s not hard as it should be. So I want to start over on the heat treat. Internet searches are not answering my specific question of: Do I need to anneal first and then go back to the oven to harden, then quench, then temper again? Thanks
 

MikeL

KNIFE MAKER
Why do you feel that you 'noticed while grinding' it isn't as hard as it should be?
It just ‘felt’ soft just like when I did the pre HT grind. I don’t have a any testers other than files. But I did decide to see if I could drill a hole in the handle. The entire blade including handle was quenched. The drill bit dug in without issue just like pre HT. Based on that unscientific method, I want to start over. The blade edge is still plenty thick for another try. Thanks
 

Doug Lester

Well-Known Member
Especially with the handle it could be that the tang was too thick to harden. Remember that 1095 is a shallow hardening steel and with good grain control it might not want to harden thicker than that. Try etching the blade an see if you have an auto-hamon.

Doug
 

MikeL

KNIFE MAKER
Especially with the handle it could be that the tang was too thick to harden. Remember that 1095 is a shallow hardening steel and with good grain control it might not want to harden thicker than that. Try etching the blade an see if you have an auto-hamon.

Doug

Okay. I can try that. Thanks

I’m gathering with the responses it must be kinda rare to not get hardened 1095?
 

Gliden07

Well-Known Member
Yes. It’s 1095. I’ve been using the parks oil for a while. That could be the issue. I had planned on using new oil.
Know where I start? Anneal?
Thanks

I've never used the Parks always have used Canola. Guess it would depend how old it is? Maybe call Parks??
 

Ty Adams

KNIFE MAKER
What was your heat treat regimen? Did you do any thermo-cycling, or a soak time at temp? You don't need to do anything but heat treat it again, just remember every time you do the grain gets smaller making it harder for the steel to harden.
 

MikeL

KNIFE MAKER
What was your heat treat regimen? Did you do any thermo-cycling, or a soak time at temp? You don't need to do anything but heat treat it again, just remember every time you do the grain gets smaller making it harder for the steel to harden.

Put it in the oven, ramp to 1475, hold for 7 mins, quench in parks, two 2 hr tempers at 500.

Thanks for the input guys.
 

Ty Adams

KNIFE MAKER
Hopefully Kevin will be along to help answer your question. In my limited experience all high carbon steels benefit from some sort of heat cycling. I like to start at 1600 and work my way down in 50 degree increments too 1450, or lower.
 

MikeL

KNIFE MAKER
Hopefully Kevin will be along to help answer your question. In my limited experience all high carbon steels benefit from some sort of heat cycling. I like to start at 1600 and work my way down in 50 degree increments too 1450, or lower.

I have some more reading and learning to do! I thought, perhaps wrongly, cycling benefited forged blades. I guess it can also be useful for stock removal. I’ll do some more reading. Thanks again.
 

Chris Railey

KNIFE MAKER
How old is your quench oil? Any danger it has been contaminated or its too old? If you really want to know the cause change one thing at a time to see what works. I would start with my oil. Use new quench oil or Canola and see what happens. That being said I was told a few months ago by a smith I trust that some people have encountered problems with 1095 being very inconsistent in HT lately. Something about a problem from the steel manufacturer.
 

MikeL

KNIFE MAKER
How old is your quench oil? Any danger it has been contaminated or its too old? If you really want to know the cause change one thing at a time to see what works. I would start with my oil. Use new quench oil or Canola and see what happens. That being said I was told a few months ago by a smith I trust that some people have encountered problems with 1095 being very inconsistent in HT lately. Something about a problem from the steel manufacturer.
Changing the oil out is definitely one thing I’ll do. It’s also in a small container (about a gallon) so it’s probably easier to contaminate. Thanks
 

Chris Railey

KNIFE MAKER
You know, you could always clean it up and etch it to see if it hardened. As to your original question though I do not think annealing would harm the blade but I also do not really think it is necessary either. Maybe etch it to make sure there is a problem and if there is, use new oil and follow your current HT process since it has worked in the past. That is just my opinion, of course it is also wise to give KC a couple of days to see if he responds because I would surely follow his advice over mine.
 
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MikeL

KNIFE MAKER
You know, you could always clean it up and etch it to see if it hardened. As to your original question though I do not think annealing would harm the blade but I also do not really think it is necessary either. Maybe etch it to make sure there is a problem and if there is, use new oil and follow your current HT process since it has worked in the past. That is just my opinion, of course it is also wise to give KC a couple of days to see if he responds because I would surely follow his advice over mine.
I appreciate your opinion and input..
Thanks and thanks to everyone else.

I’m going to just re-heat treat with new oil (no anneal) and see what happens.
 

Kevin R. Cashen

Super Moderator
I heat treated 1095 bar stock using my paragon. So temperature control was not the issue. Quenched in parks 50. Seemed to be hard with the file test so I did the two temper cycles. However, after doing some grinding, I now feel like it’s not hard as it should be. So I want to start over on the heat treat. Internet searches are not answering my specific question of: Do I need to anneal first and then go back to the oven to harden, then quench, then temper again? Thanks

My ears were itching.

How are you annealing? The anneal should not be necessary, all you really need to do is eliminate the chances of warpage, while keeping the decarb and oxidation to a minimum, so a stress relieve would be the best bet, just heat to around 1200°F and air cool. Also, any cross section over 3/16" in 1095 is rarely going to reach the same hardness as the edge. Although I have done it, when at the top of my game, in Parks/Heatbath #50, I normally am never able to get reliable HRC at the 1/4" ricasso area.
 

MikeL

KNIFE MAKER
My ears were itching.

How are you annealing? The anneal should not be necessary, all you really need to do is eliminate the chances of warpage, while keeping the decarb and oxidation to a minimum, so a stress relieve would be the best bet, just heat to around 1200°F and air cool. Also, any cross section over 3/16" in 1095 is rarely going to reach the same hardness as the edge. Although I have done it, when at the top of my game, in Parks/Heatbath #50, I normally am never able to get reliable HRC at the 1/4" ricasso area.
Thank you very much. I’ll add the stress relief step.
 
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