Questions about Lateral Strength

I think that more important for strength issues than the tang is the plunge grind. That can be a serious weak point especially when discussing lateral stress.

I'm thinking of using a 1/2" instead of 1/4" round file to cut my plunges on bigger/heavy duty knives. A square plunge would be a bad stress riser, a smooth round one is good, so the bigger the radius the better it distributes stress, right?
 
I'm thinking of using a 1/2" instead of 1/4" round file to cut my plunges on bigger/heavy duty knives. A square plunge would be a bad stress riser, a smooth round one is good, so the bigger the radius the better it distributes stress, right?

James,
Good idea, and I would do that, but I was thinking more of a 45 degree angled(or more) plunge line, this will distribute the stress over a larger area, and be less of a stress point.
Thanks,
 
In this particular instance, it would be an internal chamfer or radius.
The radius will distribute stress better.
 
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Delbert,
Depending upon how the knife was loaded, the handle material and how it is attached could certainly be a factor. It the case brought up above, the point of the knife would be imbedded in something and then loaded with someone standing on it. In that case, as I indicated above, the highest stress would be right at the point where the blade entered whatever it was stuck into so the handle should not be a factor. That said, areas of high stress concentration could indeed cause failure someplace else with the plunge being a good example. Stress does concentrate when there are rapid changes in cross section or at sharp edges and the increase can be significant. The smoother the transition from one thickness to another, the lower the concentration, so a large plunge radius is better than a small one as related to local stress. Holes can also be sources of stress concentration. Frankly, determining the stress of a knife in bending is not a simple task due to the many factors of blade shape, load application, surface finish, finishing method, bevel shape, plunge, holes, etc. A good analyst with a finite element program could certainly do it but it is far from trivial. In machine design, there are a lot of rules of thumb we apply when starting a design but, in the end, things always get changed based upon results of analysis and test. A knife is a relatively complex structure with multiple material types and lots of geometry, finish and strength variables. Doing real world tests as many makers do is probably the best way to ensure a design will work and last as intended. The test results, even failures, help provide the knowledge needed to know what is really needed for a given application.
Randy
 
What an awesome thread, I can see both sides of this conversation, and it is totally awesome that, while it may seem like this is a somewhat heated discussion, the information in this thread is LOADS of detail that Newb's like me need to read, and better UNDERSTAND! And no one is upset or angry, there is no "fuel on the fire", Del, just more insight, this how we learn, awesome thread, and Thank you James for starting it. Now let's see some TESTING!~Rex~
 
...Thank you James for starting it. Now let's see some TESTING!~Rex~

You're very welcome Rex, I'm learning a lot too! Some of it is stuff I kinda already thought I knew, but didn't really understand... some of it is new to me and that's even more fun. If anyone wants to share their testing procedures for strength, please don't hesitate.

Thanks again to all for your input :)
 
You're very welcome Rex, I'm learning a lot too! Some of it is stuff I kinda already thought I knew, but didn't really understand... some of it is new to me and that's even more fun. If anyone wants to share their testing procedures for strength, please don't hesitate.

Thanks again to all for your input :)


If you think about how we make knives in general, not everyone but for the most part, we basically do the same thing that's been being done for years. The plunge line itself has been changed very little for the most part, once I saw the posts about how to do the plunge, I asked myself, "Why do we do a plunge?" Is it because that is what is expected, or because there has to be a transitional spot where the sharpened edge begins? I've seen a few that didn't have a plunge like the Searles (sp)Bowie, and some others similar to that. The next thing that came to mind, was, with all of the flex tests that have been done, I don't recall anyone ever pointing out the plunge as a stressed area, of course it does make sense that it could or should be.

To do a lateral stress test would be fairly easy, apply stress laterally to the end of the handle, with a way to measure the force applied. Knowing that there is a constant give and take to build the right tool for the desired application, if you make a knife too beefy you will sacrifice some cutting ability, too thin and you sacrifice some strength, the goal of every maker is to dial in the balance of the 2 to get the most of both,
to make the tool to do the job in mind. We have all sen the huge blades that are made of super thick steel, they usually cost way too much to use them much less do any real testing on them. Charlie had a proto-type Busse Combat he had a customer wanted him to match up the handle to for one that he had made for him, this knife was AMAZING! Thickness was enormous, I think it was 5/16, it was BEEFY, and it was sharp, but to know for sure if it can hold up under extreme conditions there would have to be some testing done, I know they do their own testing, but this one will be a wall hanger only. Being a proto-type he said it was worth a couple G's, made me nervous holding it...
James, the best we can do is make the knives that perform, like Ed said, make a cutter or make a crow bar, trying to split the difference and stand behind a knife that you tell a customer that can be used as such will bring on the grief! Because, if you tell them it will pry open a wooden crate, they will then try to pry open a welded steel crate, then send it back to you, trash your name, and demand you fix it or give them a new one, it's a slippery slope. I've made up a sheet that I give with my knives, it clearly explains my warranty, that if in anyway the knife is abused the warranty is VOIDED. I don't think this thread is intended to make a "knife shaped crowbar", I think the idea is to explore the possibilities of making a stronger blade that can withstand more lateral pressure than is usually expected, and that my friends will benefit us all! Making it strong enough to handle the extreme situations that knives can be put in is the goal, not advertising that it is hammered into a tree to escape a bear...which if the fella does that, his problems with the knife won't be realized, bears don't need a step and most likely his only defense will be embedded in a tree. Not a good idea in my mind.
With all of that said, these are just some of my observations, we all have ideas and opinions, these are just a few of mine, it is this kind of exchange that makes us better makers, Rex
 
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