Profitability check
- Thread starter Smallshop
- Start date
John Wilson
Well-Known Member
as a hobbyist, getting paid for you labor IS profit! (well, compared to every other hobby I've ever had!)
wall e
Well-Known Member
Exactly and the 18.00 is a bonus.
You got the joke as it was intended."....profit of 18.00 just enough to have a romantic McDs dinner. Lol"
...and not starving! Lol!
I do not aim to make a massive source of money but more was asking if as a hobbyist and a beginner that was the reasonable pricing?
Not meaning to thread jack just attempting to create a visual for me to show I understood how this works for pricing and skill level to not give away knives.
Ty Adams
KNIFE MAKER
You aren't an USPSA shooter by chance? Me and my wife's shooting friends thought it was crazy to spend $35 on a set of scales. Then I asked them how much they spent on ammo in practice over the last month. No response. I can tell you how much the 1/2 million rounds of handgun ammo cost that has gone down range in the last 20 years. ( Yes 500,000 ) I could buy a TW 90 for what I have in reloading equipment. Shooting has only cost me. No break even or lost a little on that one. The money's gone.... Love it thought not going to stop that either.
Brandant becarefull pricing off the internet. I am in the same boat as you in that I have not sold very many knives. If you look at one of the more popular forums on the internet that has a knife maker's for sale section you see a lot of people selling knives for $100-$125. I would rather give them to friends and family for free then give them away to a stranger. When I first started looking at what people were selling those knives for I got depressed and thought how is a guy going to compete with that. Then a full time maker told me to make the best knife you can all the time and they will sell themselves.
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John Wilson
Well-Known Member
You aren't kidding about shooting. That is literally burning money. I love it, too. Years ago I shot Bullseye and steels just on a local level and needed a second job to afford it. Even reloading, I don't save any money unless you consider that you can make match quality ammo for about the same price as plinking ammo. I got tired of being broke and fell in love with .22s That helped... a little.
Speaking of putting all your money in a big pile and burning it. Try competitive armwrestling. I've been doing that for 20 years. Back when I was chasing titles it was costing me about ten grand a year, mostly in travel. People would always ask me if I made money doing it. The answer I gave is, "If I have an exceptional year I can win enough money to feed a cat." I didn't mention the cat would be eating dry food from the dollar store. Same thing though- it gets in your blood. I've never ridden rodeo but I've listened to enough George Strait songs to see that rodeo and armwrestling have a lot in common, such as poverty and pissed off wives.
Speaking of putting all your money in a big pile and burning it. Try competitive armwrestling. I've been doing that for 20 years. Back when I was chasing titles it was costing me about ten grand a year, mostly in travel. People would always ask me if I made money doing it. The answer I gave is, "If I have an exceptional year I can win enough money to feed a cat." I didn't mention the cat would be eating dry food from the dollar store. Same thing though- it gets in your blood. I've never ridden rodeo but I've listened to enough George Strait songs to see that rodeo and armwrestling have a lot in common, such as poverty and pissed off wives.
John Wilson
Well-Known Member
small world! I know who Jim is (a legend) but I don't know him personally. I used to run into him at big events like the World Wristwrestling Championships in Petaluma, CA and the National Pro-Am in Lake Tahoe. I'd see him at events out west back around the late 90's - early 2000's when I was running all over the place. I believe we both competed on Team USA at the world championships a time or two during that time. He has been around a very long time and was pulling Masters already when I began to hit my stride in my late 20's.
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Ty Adams
KNIFE MAKER
Yep small world. I was friends with his youngest son growing up. We drifted apart in highschool. But last I heard Josh was following in his Dad's foot steps in the armwrestling world. I also heard Jim retired in 2014. To many shoulder surgeries. Sorry for the thread drift guy's.
John Wilson
Well-Known Member
for a state with a relatively small population, it's amazing the amount of talent that comes out of Montana. You guys must have some good water!
EdCaffreyMS
"The Montana Bladesmith"
I can lend some insight into the Montana crowd of knifemakers...... years ago, when I first moved to Montana (pushing 30 years ago now). Myself and several others formed a sort of loose group. The knife world called us "The Montana Mafia" for a number of years. We were always in each others shops, and when we came up with something we thought was new or cool, we'd be on the phone with the others....sharing and telling what we had done/discovered. Each would take the idea and generally improved on it, then share it with the group. This went on for the better part of a decade, and in that time frame it allowed for a lot of advancement in just about every area of Bladesmithing/knifemaking, that would have taken far longer had we each been on our own.
Although a certain knife magazine gave credit to a "southern" Bladesmith for "inventing" the use of powdered steels in creating Mosaic Damascus, it was actually one of this group that came up with the idea. After passing it around the group, with each bettering the process, an individual was telling a certain "southern" guy about it, the "southern" guy followed the "recipe", and because he had an "in" with a particular "knife" magazine, he lead them to believe he was the inventor of the method/technique. And the rest is history. For a number of years, that incident caused a serious riff between those of us in the NW, and the Southern Bladesmiths.....but again, it's all a part of history now.
The point being, because of that group, and the fact that we were all open and sharing with each other, it allowed us to "advance" our skills/knowledge to a point that would have otherwise likely taken us a lifetime to acquire as individuals. As time does with most things, the group sort of drifted apart, but what we did as a group over that decade or so, was far more then we could have ever accomplished as individuals.
Although a certain knife magazine gave credit to a "southern" Bladesmith for "inventing" the use of powdered steels in creating Mosaic Damascus, it was actually one of this group that came up with the idea. After passing it around the group, with each bettering the process, an individual was telling a certain "southern" guy about it, the "southern" guy followed the "recipe", and because he had an "in" with a particular "knife" magazine, he lead them to believe he was the inventor of the method/technique.
And the rest is history. For a number of years, that incident caused a serious riff between those of us in the NW, and the Southern Bladesmiths.....but again, it's all a part of history now.The point being, because of that group, and the fact that we were all open and sharing with each other, it allowed us to "advance" our skills/knowledge to a point that would have otherwise likely taken us a lifetime to acquire as individuals. As time does with most things, the group sort of drifted apart, but what we did as a group over that decade or so, was far more then we could have ever accomplished as individuals.
BrandantR
Well-Known Member
I couldn't agree more, Ty. I only look at listed prices as a starting point. I have a set minimum price of $300 for my knives that I do not go below. I've sold a few, given some away to family members and close friends, and enjoy playing with the ones still looking for new homes which, thankfully due to a little better marketing, are becoming fewer and fewer.
scott.livesey
Dealer - Purveyor
I don't think it is the water. this time of year the folks in the great white north only have 8 or 9 hours of daylight, working in the shop must be a good way to pass the time.
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John Wilson
Well-Known Member
I can lend some insight into the Montana crowd of knifemakers...... years ago, when I first moved to Montana (pushing 30 years ago now). Myself and several others formed a sort of loose group. The knife world called us "The Montana Mafia" for a number of years. We were always in each others shops, and when we came up with something we thought was new or cool, we'd be on the phone with the others....sharing and telling what we had done/discovered. Each would take the idea and generally improved on it, then share it with the group. This went on for the better part of a decade, and in that time frame it allowed for a lot of advancement in just about every area of Bladesmithing/knifemaking, that would have taken far longer had we each been on our own.
Although a certain knife magazine gave credit to a "southern" Bladesmith for "inventing" the use of powdered steels in creating Mosaic Damascus, it was actually one of this group that came up with the idea. After passing it around the group, with each bettering the process, an individual was telling a certain "southern" guy about it, the "southern" guy followed the "recipe", and because he had an "in" with a particular "knife" magazine, he lead them to believe he was the inventor of the method/technique.
The point being, because of that group, and the fact that we were all open and sharing with each other, it allowed us to "advance" our skills/knowledge to a point that would have otherwise likely taken us a lifetime to acquire as individuals. As time does with most things, the group sort of drifted apart, but what we did as a group over that decade or so, was far more then we could have ever accomplished as individuals.
Thank you for sharing that story, Ed! That had to be a very exciting time and we're all the beneficiaries of it, so thank you.
scott.livesey
Dealer - Purveyor
here is a previous threads that addressed the subject:
http://knifedogs.com/showthread.php...when-you-are-new-a-discussion&highlight=costs
http://knifedogs.com/showthread.php?33167-Knifemaking-abrasive-costs&highlight=knifemaking
some things we identified. if you can do things in a batch, you can save time and money. if hardening one 1084 knife costs a dollar, doing a batch of 10 will cost $1.50 not $10.
http://knifedogs.com/showthread.php...when-you-are-new-a-discussion&highlight=costs
http://knifedogs.com/showthread.php?33167-Knifemaking-abrasive-costs&highlight=knifemaking
some things we identified. if you can do things in a batch, you can save time and money. if hardening one 1084 knife costs a dollar, doing a batch of 10 will cost $1.50 not $10.
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Smallshop
KNIFE MAKER
"I don't think it is the water. this time of year the folks in the great white north only have 8 or 9 hours of daylight, working in the shop must be a good way to pass the time."
Bingo....then in the summer we have awesome natural light till almost 10 pm. Also, I don't know many guys here that don't carry a knife(large towns probably different)...fairly rural everywhere in the state and ya hafta have a good knife. many farmers/ranchers have good shops where they can make things the need that they can't easily buy. So maybe the culture is naturally more blade oriented. lol
Bingo....then in the summer we have awesome natural light till almost 10 pm. Also, I don't know many guys here that don't carry a knife(large towns probably different)...fairly rural everywhere in the state and ya hafta have a good knife. many farmers/ranchers have good shops where they can make things the need that they can't easily buy. So maybe the culture is naturally more blade oriented. lol
PMARTINKNIVES
Well-Known Member
Making knives in batches is the only way to make enough product to maintain a living in any business. One off stuff is great and usually demands more money on the sale, but rest assured if its made in my shop, it was done in a batch of other knives. I don't fire up the forge for one blade, I don't fire up the heat treat equipment for one blade and I don't set up drill presses, milling machines or anodizing equipment for one knife. Cost effective means just that, it has to be cost effective in order to maintain the bottom line. You can make 5 knives in the same time it takes to make one if you manage your time and machinery properly, and that will keep your consumables down to a minimum (belts, compound, gas, electricity, etc). Efficiency is the key to any successful operation and you need to keep that in mind every time you flip the lights on.
Pricing has always been an issue and when a new maker asks me what his knives should sell for, my reply is always the same. You need to figure your average cost of consumables and actual materials invested in each knife, add a profit margin and try and sell it for that........in other words, I don"t know!
Each maker and his shop is different and needs to be figured individually.
Marketing is the most important part of any business, I feel I need to spend as much time marketing as I do making. Its a hard thing to do but a necessary evil, another subject of little attention is photography. Its the best investment you can make in this business. A good photograph will sell your knife for you, get the most attention for the money and will inevitably set up future sales. Pay for professional pictures, those folks spend as much time perfecting their craft, as you did making knives.
Enough soap boxing!
Peter
Pricing has always been an issue and when a new maker asks me what his knives should sell for, my reply is always the same. You need to figure your average cost of consumables and actual materials invested in each knife, add a profit margin and try and sell it for that........in other words, I don"t know!
Each maker and his shop is different and needs to be figured individually.
Marketing is the most important part of any business, I feel I need to spend as much time marketing as I do making. Its a hard thing to do but a necessary evil, another subject of little attention is photography. Its the best investment you can make in this business. A good photograph will sell your knife for you, get the most attention for the money and will inevitably set up future sales. Pay for professional pictures, those folks spend as much time perfecting their craft, as you did making knives.
Enough soap boxing!
Peter
EdCaffreyMS
"The Montana Bladesmith"
BINGO! Absolutely brilliant points Peter! I agree 110%!
That being said, "marketing" isn't always just selling though....it's having your name "out there"....think about ways you can do that without being "a pushy salesman". Way back when I first decided I needed a website, I searched for web designers, but ALL of them were just "Sell! Sell! Sell!", and that just isn't me...... so long story short, I taught myself to build/maintain websites. This allowed me to be who I am, and allowed me to present myself and my work in a manner that was more "me", then having that appearance of a "used car salesman".
I focused on presenting myself as one who likes to help others, which is the real me, and I think it's worked out pretty well over the years.Don't neglect the internet in general either..... every morning I spent 1-2 HOURS on the computer, on various knife forums, Facebook, Instagram, and email. It eats up a lot of time, but I feel it's necessary to keep my name out there.
Another excellent point!
I would add that the value of quality photos cannot be over emphasized, for the very reasons Peter stated.
For a long time I paid professionals to take photos for me, and sometimes still do, but it became a cost issue for me, in that my photographer of choice got to the point he was charging $XXX PER CLICK OF THE SHUTTER, whether the photo was usable or not, which created the cost issue...... so photography became another area that I've taught myself over the years. I'm far from what I would consider "good" at it, but I often get compliments from the magazines that are surprised when they call to double check where the credit for my photos should go.
Smallshop
KNIFE MAKER
Good stuff Peter...Thanks!
I think the thread on photos (started by Tracy M?) was excellent. It is basically a ongoing tutorial on how to make better pics of knives. I believe guys with talent to make knives can learn product photography. At least well enough to show their knives in a professional fashion. I have seen website pics of knives that look like blown up cell phone pics shot on the spur of the moment...and all I can think is...you put all this time into a knife and my ONLY link to the quality/artistry of your knife is the poor quality pic. I don't get it...
In the area of photography a simple approach seems best...often times photos appear somewhat cluttered when made by the maker. sometimes all the pro-photo guys do is a simple background...the beauty of the knife is the main draw.
I worked for 7 yrs for a product development firm (as a model maker and then manager of the design studio) Having had to spend too many hours (imo) in marketing meetings and seeing how easy it is to miss the "pulse" I would say that marketing is one of the hardest aspects to any business. I didn't like them 'cause that was not my area of strength...the boss wanted all hands on deck because we fab guys represented a culture/mindset that the office folk didn't have...the more the merrier I guess...
Ed...as far as helping others you are a fine example. It is obvious that you do not have to push yourself to be helpful...thanks again for the high quality advise you generously provide.
I think the thread on photos (started by Tracy M?) was excellent. It is basically a ongoing tutorial on how to make better pics of knives. I believe guys with talent to make knives can learn product photography. At least well enough to show their knives in a professional fashion. I have seen website pics of knives that look like blown up cell phone pics shot on the spur of the moment...and all I can think is...you put all this time into a knife and my ONLY link to the quality/artistry of your knife is the poor quality pic. I don't get it...
In the area of photography a simple approach seems best...often times photos appear somewhat cluttered when made by the maker. sometimes all the pro-photo guys do is a simple background...the beauty of the knife is the main draw.
I worked for 7 yrs for a product development firm (as a model maker and then manager of the design studio) Having had to spend too many hours (imo) in marketing meetings and seeing how easy it is to miss the "pulse" I would say that marketing is one of the hardest aspects to any business. I didn't like them 'cause that was not my area of strength...the boss wanted all hands on deck because we fab guys represented a culture/mindset that the office folk didn't have...the more the merrier I guess...
Ed...as far as helping others you are a fine example. It is obvious that you do not have to push yourself to be helpful...thanks again for the high quality advise you generously provide.
buckmark13
Member
This is very simplistic, but may be a good way of thinking about it.
Take your revenue for the year, and subtract all of your expenses for the year. Take that number and divide it by the number of hours you worked for the year. That translates into your personal "hourly" rate.
What's an hour of time worth to YOU?
It may be very different depending on your personal situation and why you're investing your time. How does that rate compare to an hour spent elsewhere for YOU?
Only YOU can answer the questions!
Take your revenue for the year, and subtract all of your expenses for the year. Take that number and divide it by the number of hours you worked for the year. That translates into your personal "hourly" rate.
What's an hour of time worth to YOU?
It may be very different depending on your personal situation and why you're investing your time. How does that rate compare to an hour spent elsewhere for YOU?
Only YOU can answer the questions!
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:58:Awww, I wouldn't do that - it's so depressing when I see my actual pay per hour