Pivots,washer,bearings

Aikenn

Well-Known Member
So maybe old and hashed out. But pressed pivot bushing in one liner. Then how tight or its it till the screw bottoms out. I have been trying threaded bushings/pivots. Screws on both liners no press fit. Bronze washer. Blade plus washers screw both sides in liners. Please what am i missing. Its alot but there really is no clears direction at least as i see.
Ok that post was written in a hurry. Had to get my 2nd shot.
Here more details.
.188 dia. Threaded pivot 4-40 thread. Length is blade thickness plus 2 bronze washers.
my liner are also reamed .188. 4-40 button head are counterbore in liner.
when I tighten down on the screws of the pivot I bind the blade.
So am I using wrong style pivot??
Should I press fit pivot in on side liner?? I appreciate all help.
 
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Sorry, but you're not making much sense. Could you please be a bit clearer as to what exactly it is that you want to know?
 
Sorry, but you're not making much sense. Could you please be a bit clearer as to what exactly it is that you want to know?
Sorry Ed wrote better details. Please reread. So I have worked out all the other details trial and error. And reading books, watching vids, buying dvds, just looking for better direction on this detail.
 
OK... you're talking tension on the action. How hard or soft the action/travel, is directly related to how tight you tighten a pivot screw.

With washers, you can't go very tight, and over time the washer will "wear in" and then the pivot will require adjustment.....that's just the nature of the beast with folders using washers, with any type of "screw" pivot. The cleanest, smoothest actions, all other things being equal, is pretty much always bearings. As I mentioned elsewhere, my preferred method is caged bearings with ceramic balls/bearings, counterbored in place.

Now, let's talk about the "bind" on the blade when you tighten down on the pivot screw. There are many factors, including how precise your parts, as in the frame/liners, blade, and how precision flat those parts are.
OK, let's assume that all of your parts of dead flat and finished/ready to assemble. Put everything together, and during the assembly, put a couple of "dabs" of good quality grease on BOTH SIDES OF EACH WASHER as you assemble. Tighten the pivot screw down to the point that it is difficult to move the blade by hand. Run the blade back and forth throughout it's range of action, lock, etc. for about 5-10mins. The action will likely loosen up during that time, and as it does, stop and retighten the pivot screw(s)...... basically what you're doing is "working in" the action.

Now, here's the part that you're likely missing/are searching for. Pivot screws ARE NOT TIGHTENED FULLY.....by the fact that they must be ONLY as tight as necessary for a smooth action, and yet as tight as possible without impairing or hindering the action of the folder. Now, since pivot screws are not fully tightened down, and subject to loosening with the action of the folder..... there needs to be some method/mechanism to keep the pivot screw from loosening.
I noticed that you are retired machinist, so that part of you might be convinced that "fully tightened" is required, and if that is the case, your answer MIGHT be press fitting the barrel portion of your pivot, and then trimming the screw threads until it bottoms out, and is fully tight at the same time. The issue with that, is that there is no adjustment left in the folder's action for when washers, bearings, or whatever pivot mechanism you use wears......and requires tightening the pivot screws.... which is why most choose not to go that route. First lesson of knifemaking..... EVERYTHING we do when building a knife is a "give-n-take"..... we give up something somewhere, to gain somewhere else. ;)

There are a few choices that people use to "secure" pivot screws..... many use the Blue/medium strength thread locker (loctitie), others choose to use the Red thread locker (again loctite), There is also the mechanical means of making the pivot barrel itself a "D" shape by sanding/filing on side of the pivot barrel, and then center punching the INSIDE of one liner/frame to make the pivot hole a "D" shape (this keeps a pivot/barrel from rotating when the folder's action is worked and loosening the pivot screw).

Personally, I prefer to use threaded barrels for my pivots, with a screw on each end. I use small rubber O-rings, under the pivot screw heads.... which keeps just enough tension on the screws to keep them from loosening, yet allows me (or the new owner) to tighten the screws to achieve however heavy or light action is choosen.

Hopefully that answers your question....if not, and I misunderstood, we can sure try again. ;)
 
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OK... you're talking tension on the action. How hard or soft the action/travel, is directly related to how tight you tighten a pivot screw.

With washers, you can't go very tight, and over time the washer will "wear in" and then the pivot will require adjustment.....that's just the nature of the beast with folders using washers, with any type of "screw" pivot. The cleanest, smoothest actions, all other things being equal, is pretty much always bearings. As I mentioned elsewhere, my preferred method is caged bearings with ceramic balls/bearings, counterbored in place.

Now, let's talk about the "bind" on the blade when you tighten down on the pivot screw. There are many factors, including how precise your parts, as in the frame/liners, blade, and how precision flat those parts are.
OK, let's assume that all of your parts of dead flat and finished/ready to assemble. Put everything together, and during the assembly, put a couple of "dabs" of good quality grease on BOTH SIDES OF EACH WASHER as you assemble. Tighten the pivot screw down to the point that it is difficult to move the blade by hand. Run the blade back and forth throughout it's range of action, lock, etc. for about 5-10mins. The action will likely loosen up during that time, and as it does, stop and retighten the pivot screw(s)...... basically what you're doing is "working in" the action.

Now, here's the part that you're likely missing/are searching for. Pivot screws ARE NOT TIGHTENED FULLY.....by the fact that they must be ONLY as tight as necessary for a smooth action, and yet as tight as possible without impairing or hindering the action of the folder. Now, since pivot screws are not fully tightened down, and subject to loosening with the action of the folder..... there needs to be some method/mechanism to keep the pivot screw from loosening.
I noticed that you are retired machinist, so that part of you might be convinced that "fully tightened" is required, and if that is the case, your answer MIGHT be press fitting the barrel portion of your pivot, and then trimming the screw threads until it bottoms out, and is fully tight at the same time. The issue with that, is that there is no adjustment left in the folder's action for when washers, bearings, or whatever pivot mechanism you use wears......and requires tightening the pivot screws.... which is why most choose not to go that route. First lesson of knifemaking..... EVERYTHING we do when building a knife is a "give-n-take"..... we give up something somewhere, to gain somewhere else. ;)

There are a few choices that people use to "secure" pivot screws..... many use the Blue/medium strength thread locker (loctitie), others choose to use the Red thread locker (again loctite), There is also the mechanical means of making the pivot barrel itself a "D" shape by sanding/filing on side of the pivot barrel, and then center punching the INSIDE of one liner/frame to make the pivot hole a "D" shape (this keeps a pivot/barrel from rotating when the folder's action is worked and loosening the pivot screw).

Personally, I prefer to use threaded barrels for my pivots, with a screw on each end. I use small rubber O-rings, under the pivot screw heads.... which keeps just enough tension on the screws to keep them from loosening, yet allows me (or the new owner) to tighten the screws to achieve however heavy or light action is choosen.

Hopefully that answers your question....if not, and I misunderstood, we can sure try again. ;)

I have always used blue loctite on my pivots after a thorough "run-in" as you described.

But I'm intrigued by the O-ring idea. I might give them a try. Thanks for the idea.

BTW I'd suggest to anyone reading this to never use red loctite. You or your customer will not be able to adjust or remove anything you use it on. Even using heat (and who wants to do that to a handmade knife?) will likely result in striping the head of anything threaded with permanent (red) loctite.
 
OK... you're talking tension on the action. How hard or soft the action/travel, is directly related to how tight you tighten a pivot screw.

With washers, you can't go very tight, and over time the washer will "wear in" and then the pivot will require adjustment.....that's just the nature of the beast with folders using washers, with any type of "screw" pivot. The cleanest, smoothest actions, all other things being equal, is pretty much always bearings. As I mentioned elsewhere, my preferred method is caged bearings with ceramic balls/bearings, counterbored in place.

Now, let's talk about the "bind" on the blade when you tighten down on the pivot screw. There are many factors, including how precise your parts, as in the frame/liners, blade, and how precision flat those parts are.
OK, let's assume that all of your parts of dead flat and finished/ready to assemble. Put everything together, and during the assembly, put a couple of "dabs" of good quality grease on BOTH SIDES OF EACH WASHER as you assemble. Tighten the pivot screw down to the point that it is difficult to move the blade by hand. Run the blade back and forth throughout it's range of action, lock, etc. for about 5-10mins. The action will likely loosen up during that time, and as it does, stop and retighten the pivot screw(s)...... basically what you're doing is "working in" the action.

Now, here's the part that you're likely missing/are searching for. Pivot screws ARE NOT TIGHTENED FULLY.....by the fact that they must be ONLY as tight as necessary for a smooth action, and yet as tight as possible without impairing or hindering the action of the folder. Now, since pivot screws are not fully tightened down, and subject to loosening with the action of the folder..... there needs to be some method/mechanism to keep the pivot screw from loosening.
I noticed that you are retired machinist, so that part of you might be convinced that "fully tightened" is required, and if that is the case, your answer MIGHT be press fitting the barrel portion of your pivot, and then trimming the screw threads until it bottoms out, and is fully tight at the same time. The issue with that, is that there is no adjustment left in the folder's action for when washers, bearings, or whatever pivot mechanism you use wears......and requires tightening the pivot screws.... which is why most choose not to go that route. First lesson of knifemaking..... EVERYTHING we do when building a knife is a "give-n-take"..... we give up something somewhere, to gain somewhere else. ;)

There are a few choices that people use to "secure" pivot screws..... many use the Blue/medium strength thread locker (loctitie), others choose to use the Red thread locker (again loctite), There is also the mechanical means of making the pivot barrel itself a "D" shape by sanding/filing on side of the pivot barrel, and then center punching the INSIDE of one liner/frame to make the pivot hole a "D" shape (this keeps a pivot/barrel from rotating when the folder's action is worked and loosening the pivot screw).

Personally, I prefer to use threaded barrels for my pivots, with a screw on each end. I use small rubber O-rings, under the pivot screw heads.... which keeps just enough tension on the screws to keep them from loosening, yet allows me (or the new owner) to tighten the screws to achieve however heavy or light action is choosen.

Hopefully that answers your question....if not, and I misunderstood, we can sure try again. ;)
So tried to send an email and after typing 3 paragraphs the message got lost. But anyway. Thank for the help. The o only other idea I had was a pressed in headed pivot with a bolt on one side. But then I would have to build a fixture to cut the headed pivot. Thanks
 
OK... you're talking tension on the action. How hard or soft the action/travel, is directly related to how tight you tighten a pivot screw.

With washers, you can't go very tight, and over time the washer will "wear in" and then the pivot will require adjustment.....that's just the nature of the beast with folders using washers, with any type of "screw" pivot. The cleanest, smoothest actions, all other things being equal, is pretty much always bearings. As I mentioned elsewhere, my preferred method is caged bearings with ceramic balls/bearings, counterbored in place.

Now, let's talk about the "bind" on the blade when you tighten down on the pivot screw. There are many factors, including how precise your parts, as in the frame/liners, blade, and how precision flat those parts are.
OK, let's assume that all of your parts of dead flat and finished/ready to assemble. Put everything together, and during the assembly, put a couple of "dabs" of good quality grease on BOTH SIDES OF EACH WASHER as you assemble. Tighten the pivot screw down to the point that it is difficult to move the blade by hand. Run the blade back and forth throughout it's range of action, lock, etc. for about 5-10mins. The action will likely loosen up during that time, and as it does, stop and retighten the pivot screw(s)...... basically what you're doing is "working in" the action.

Now, here's the part that you're likely missing/are searching for. Pivot screws ARE NOT TIGHTENED FULLY.....by the fact that they must be ONLY as tight as necessary for a smooth action, and yet as tight as possible without impairing or hindering the action of the folder. Now, since pivot screws are not fully tightened down, and subject to loosening with the action of the folder..... there needs to be some method/mechanism to keep the pivot screw from loosening.
I noticed that you are retired machinist, so that part of you might be convinced that "fully tightened" is required, and if that is the case, your answer MIGHT be press fitting the barrel portion of your pivot, and then trimming the screw threads until it bottoms out, and is fully tight at the same time. The issue with that, is that there is no adjustment left in the folder's action for when washers, bearings, or whatever pivot mechanism you use wears......and requires tightening the pivot screws.... which is why most choose not to go that route. First lesson of knifemaking..... EVERYTHING we do when building a knife is a "give-n-take"..... we give up something somewhere, to gain somewhere else. ;)

There are a few choices that people use to "secure" pivot screws..... many use the Blue/medium strength thread locker (loctitie), others choose to use the Red thread locker (again loctite), There is also the mechanical means of making the pivot barrel itself a "D" shape by sanding/filing on side of the pivot barrel, and then center punching the INSIDE of one liner/frame to make the pivot hole a "D" shape (this keeps a pivot/barrel from rotating when the folder's action is worked and loosening the pivot screw).

Personally, I prefer to use threaded barrels for my pivots, with a screw on each end. I use small rubber O-rings, under the pivot screw heads.... which keeps just enough tension on the screws to keep them from loosening, yet allows me (or the new owner) to tighten the screws to achieve however heavy or light action is choosen.

Hopefully that answers your question....if not, and I misunderstood, we can sure try again. ;)
So Ed do you use bearings in liner locks or frame locks ??????
 
I use caged bearings, with ceramic balls in both liner locks and frame locks. Every now and again, I will use bronze washers, but those are for specific use situations.
 
So Ed I get what you are saying I understand what you are saying. I also am under the impression there is no perfect answer. It's a little of this and a little of that.
But I would sure like to have clearer info.
I am trying bronze washer. BUT want to use bearings.
HOW do you use bearings in a LINER LOCK???????
Can we talk direct ?????
 
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