Philosophical Quandary....copying someone else's work.

Self Made Knives

Self Made Knives

Well-Known Member
What do you guys think about copying someone else's work for a knife that you intend to keep? A personal copy only. For example, I see offshore companies companies cloning Greg Medford's knives and selling them as direct copies for $30. I would never buy a counterfeit clone, but at the same time, I don't think I'd ever send Greg $800-$1000 for a pocket knife. But, I really like the look of his Praetorians. Would it be a sin to make your own clone for your own use? If you did, would you ever tell or show it to anyone?

I was thinking it would be a fun challenge to test myself and see how closely I could match his shop's work, but at the same time, I'd feel kind of crappy about it. I hear about guys trying to recreate historical swords and weapons all the time and you can tell they enjoy the challenge of matching the original. I am often inspired by others but try not to directly copy anyone. But sometimes, there's one out there that really calls to me!

I've had at least one guy openly tell me he copied my survival knife design and it didn't bother me too much because he said it was just for him and he wouldn't sell it. I've had others ask for an un-ground knife blank and I did say no to that. So, I can kind of see both sides. As long as it would not be sold, what do you think?
 
I think about this a lot, too. One of the most copied knives in history has to be Bob Loveless' drop point hunter. I believe that as long as you aren't trying to deceive anyone it's way different than putting out a counterfeit. I think if a maker wants to sell a knife patterned after another maker's design then the maker needs to change it in some way, or sell it as "Loveless style drop point hunter."

I don't think making a personal knife is an any way an attempt to deceive. If people ask, you say "It's patterned after Greg Medford's design." If they want to buy one, you say "I can make you one similar, but it will have my take on it, in my style."
 
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If the maker is alive, ask them. If the maker is deceased, and the pattern is very recognizable, just give credit were it's due. :)
 
I don't see why a maker should have a problem if it's just a one off for personal use. What's the worst that could happen? Someone else sees it and the original maker gets free advertisement?

If you feel off about it though, just give Greg Medford a call and ask him about it. If he doesn't like it, then draw up something that you like even better and build that. :D
 
EdCaffreyMS said:
If the maker is alive, ask them. If the maker is deceased, and the pattern is very recognizable, just give credit were it's due. :)
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I don't know if Ed has ever been accused of being a man of few words, but he sure summed it up for me.
They say, "Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery"- but if the maker doesn't see it that way, then out of respect, I would take the high road.
 
I think I suffer from a disorder or something. When I see something I want, my mind automatically goes into "I can make that" mode. I make all kinds of stuff, not just knives and I like the challenge. I have a hard time paying for something I can do myself, like plumbing, sheetrock, wiring, making tools, welding, building a sawmill, woodworking, fence building, mechanic, etc. I think it would be a fun personal challenge to try and make my own version of the knife, but don't won't bad vibes for copying someone else's design. I told myself to just make 4 or 5 knives specifically for this purchase and use those proceeds to buy the real thing, but then I keep thinking about how interesting it would be to try it myself. I might ask Greg what he thinks about it, just curious what you guys thought.
 
Anthony, my perspective on this is slightly different. I believe that when it comes to knife design, there is nothing new under the sun. I you see a knife you really like - chances are the maker "copied" some aspect of a knife he had seen before, and so-on and so-on and so-on. Every time I come up with a new design it will be less that a month before I find one so similar you would think I copied it. Another point, I'm not good enough to duplicate a knife even that I have made before, much less one made by someone else. My view is that there are a lot more thing in life worth worrying about that copying some other guys knife (one that he probably copied from someone else). Right now I am copying Gahagan's knives but you would never know it :).
 
I think what Ed said is on the money....

If a person copied your design without asking the logical assumption is that you would begin selling them without asking. Even if that is not the intent...
 
You can make a drop dead stone cold copy of anything, including a knife, for your own use. Selling it is something completely different.
 
"You can make a drop dead stone cold copy of anything, including a knife, for your own use. Selling it is something completely different."

If its a song or a written document with a copyright or a high tech item with a patent I agree but when it's a knife, I totally disagree. Here is a picture of a knife that I just finished and sold, you tell me if it is copied or not.
 

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wmhammond said:
"You can make a drop dead stone cold copy of anything, including a knife, for your own use. Selling it is something completely different."
If its a song or a written document with a copyright or a high tech item with a patent I agree but when it's a knife, I totally disagree. Here is a picture of a knife that I just finished and sold, you tell me if it is copied or not.
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We can disagree and still be buddies.

I couldn't tell you if that is a copy or not.

My point was legally, copyright or trademark law doesn't apply to items you make for your sole personal use. You can make an Ford F150 for yourself if you want using all of their patents and technology if you can figure it out. You can't make one and then sell it.

If you are going to knock off someone's knife, the right thing to do, in my mind, is to give credit where it's due. I've heard this both ways but mostly I've heard Lovelass didn't mind the copies of his knife 8" drop point as long as he got credit for the design.

Now if you make a copy of someone's style knife, say "a famous maker" , and then go around representing it as his. That's a problem. If you make a copy of his style knife and then go show the guy, anything can happen but I think most makers - after they understand it's a personal one off, won't have a problem with that. It's a small community and respect matters. I just do not see a problem with making a copy of anything, including a knife for sole personal use.
 
A good example of this legal problem is Spiderco and the spiderhole. I am fairly sure it is patented. So, if you start making knives with a hole, and you call it a spiderhole, and you begin selling them, and Spiderco finds out, "YOU MAY GET INTO SOME FINANCIAL PROBLEMS".

But as far a look-alikes go, Bob Loveless designs are used quite a bit. I see him getting credit quite often. The same holds true for "Scagel" inspired knives.

Heck, where did the name "Bowie knife" come from?

It is very hard to find any new or just discovered idea for a knife design. Just google "knife" and you will find thousands upon thousands of knives that were previously made. One of them will probably look similar to the one you just made.

Just give credit where credit is due.
 
BossDog said:
We can disagree and still be buddies.

I couldn't tell you if that is a copy or not.

My point was legally, copyright or trademark law doesn't apply to items you make for your sole personal use. You can make an Ford F150 for yourself if you want using all of their patents and technology if you can figure it out. You can't make one and then sell it.

If you are going to knock off someone's knife, the right thing to do, in my mind, is to give credit where it's due. I've heard this both ways but mostly I've heard Lovelass didn't mind the copies of his knife 8" drop point as long as he got credit for the design.

Now if you make a copy of someone's style knife, say "a famous maker" , and then go around representing it as his. That's a problem. If you make a copy of his style knife and then go show the guy, anything can happen but I think most makers - after they understand it's a personal one off, won't have a problem with that. It's a small community and respect matters. I just do not see a problem with making a copy of anything, including a knife for sole personal use.
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Whoa, Boss. I hope you didn't misunderstand my post. I meant no offence by it at al and I certainly hope we are buddiesl. All I meant was that with a very few limited exceptions( Lovelace for one, maybe) you probably couldn't patent or copyright any aspect of a knife's design because they are all so widely used and familiar. And by the way, I don't know if that knife is copied or not either. :)
 
This has been discussed to length on every forum I have seen. I have two points and then will give a little more explanation. Folks have been fashioning knives, (sharp pointy things) since man learned to make tools! Next point I have always heard that,"imitation is the sincerest form of flattery". The actual whole quote by Oscar Wilder says, “imitation is the sincerest form of flattery that mediocrity can pay to greatness.”

Having made those two points here is my take. There are very few knife designs that haven't been done! I once set for hours sketching a design for a knife till I got it too the point I liked it. Too me is was unique as I had never seen a knife that looked anything like it. Three nights later I am doing some research on something and happened upon a page that had several 16th century weapons. To my surprise my design that I thought was totally unique, was staring back at me from the page. I retrieved the sketch from the shop and laid it on the desk where I sat. Wow it had been done!!!LOL

As for copying someone, I never try to do an exact copy. Rather I use ideas sometimes I like from several pieces or take something I like and add my touch to it. That to me is where you say, this knife is Loveless inspired or maker John Doe inspired, etc. etc. Always give credit where credit is due! No matter the level of the person that inspired you!!

I often see a knife on the net and something about it inspires me, I will copy the pic and put it in my reference file, and I always try to get the makers name! If I use the pic to ask a question, the I reference the maker. If I make a similar piece I reference the maker that inspired me!

I know there are ways to protect pics, with copyrights, and with a lot of effort and money you can get patents on knives but, I also look at it this way if you place a picture on the net, you pretty much lost control of it.

It goes back to the old saying be careful of what you post on the net, forever is a long time!

I have gone the extra mile to contact the maker about a knife and/or sheath. Ask questions and ask if they minded me making a knife along the same lines as the one I am asking about! Most will be gracious and offer advice and give their blessings. After all there are some seasoned veterans out there that know they have little to fear,..................it took them years to be able to get to the level at which they are producing at. Most of us may never reach that same level!

Above all be respectful, no matter how the maker reacts! Most will be flattered that you are trying to produce a piece like theirs!!!!! If not then you have to look inside yourself and do what your conscious tells you do.

My father told when I was about 14 and we were discussing advertising for business. He told me I don't have too advertise, "if I do a good job, my name will get around fast enough, if I do a bad job my name will beat from job to job"!
 
I think part of what got me to thinking about making personal copy of someone else's knife are things like Forged in Fire. They're given an actual weapon to replicate, usually with some personal touches. And, another example, Kevin Cashen's ABS videos talking about reproducing historic swords. Really interesting stuff. I understand its not exactly the same thing as making a knife with same look as one currently on the market. But I don't really want a sword or battle axe, my interests are little more practical. The knife that I thought would be fun to replicate has a very unique, signature style to it, so it would be obvious where it came from. And again, let me be very clear, I have no intention of selling. Just thought it would be a fun personal challenge and I might end up with an EDC that very much matched a knife that I like (and can't afford). I just sent Greg a note and explained my intentions and idea. So, we'll see.
 
most ideas about knives have been done. If I am making a chef's knife, there is a particular shape I have to use or it is not a chef's knife(or butcher or bowie or ajikiri or .....) If i see a knife in a book or on a website and make a knife that looks similar, did i copy? I don't think so, although I do say "based on a John Smith hunting knife." If i bought a knife, identified the steel, measured the blade, and did everything i could to make a duplicate, yes that is a copy and I should say "a copy of ......" I know industrial designers who add small non functional pieces to their designs to help identify copiers and counterfeiters.
 
Well, Greg didn't reply, so maybe that means he's not ok with it. I've never seen any of his stuff in person, just online. I was primarily interested in just the shape, not necessarily the hardware or geometry. It would have the look, but definitely not an exact copy. Maybe I'll change it up a bit and give credit to his influence.
 
I don't think anyone is saying or suggesting that you can't "copy" a knife, but IF you do, as I mentioned earlier.... if the design is very recognizable, if the maker is alive, ask first. If the maker is deceased, give credit were it's due.

An example of something I make that is widely copied are my EBKs..... at the time I started producing them, there wasn't much like them around, within a couple of years, almost every full time maker had something similar on their table(s) at shows. There were a large number of those individuals who called or emailed me, asking if I minded if they "copied" my idea. I even had one individual who named his product "The ECRO"..... when I asked him what that stood for, his response was "Ed Caffrey Rip Off!" :) And yes, he was one of the individuals who had contacted me, asking if I minded if he produced a "copy" of my EBKs.

I suppose it's all in how an individual views things, and themselves, however I look at replies to a discussion like this, and form personal opinions about individuals. It often gives me a good idea of an individual's moral standing. Where am I going with this? Well, we've often talked about how valuable a "good" reputation is in this business, how difficult it can be to achieve, and how easily it can be lost.

I know we've all built a knife that is based on something we've seen, whether that be in person, in a book, on the internet, or whatever..... the point being, when we replicate something that is recognizable, and well known, do we do the "right thing"?

If I can form a personal opinion of someone based on their stance or response to a thread of this nature, is it not reasonable to assume that the "knife world" in general might do the same thing? Just some food for thought.
 
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