Pet blade steels

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KNIFE MAKER
I notice many of you use steels (stock removal) you have dialed in for grinding and heat treating. It makes sense to really wring out specific steels to get the best performance.

my question is sourcing:

Do you notice a difference between different sources for the "same" steel?

Do different foundrys/suppliers vary in consistency from batch to batch?(Is one producer more consistent than another?)

Do different foundrys/suppliers favor the higher or lower tolerance of a particular alloying component to obtain what they feel is the best "version" of a particular steel?

How many of you multi source steel? By lack of availability from main source or just doesn't matter?

have any of you ever sent out samples of steel for alloy assessment?

Thanks guys.
 
As Ed does mostly forging it may not be. But someone with Ed's years of experience in knifemaking, but in stock removal. Though any thoughts he has would be appreciated...
 
Ted, I don't really think this is a "stock removal" question. The underlying question is relivent to forging too. Are we starting with a steel that is consistent from knife to knife, batch to batch and year to year. If we truly are getting that in the steel we buy, then we as knife makers can dial in out heat treating to get the best blade"we" can make from a steel given our experience with it.

On to your question about buying . I only buy steel from what I consider reputable suppliers that sell US steel. It is my understanding that the bulk of the US steel is made by NiGra and they test every batch and send their test results along with a order to the suppliers you and I buy from. I'm a small duck in the pond of knife making but still buy a fare amount and haven't seen a variance in the steel I buy.

Erik
 
This would be an experienced full time maker question like Darrin, Ed, J Doyle or maybe Kevin Cashen would have more knowledge .
Im only buying steel from USAknifemaker, Alpha knife supply or New Jersey Steel Baron. I dont know if they all get it from the same source or not. There cant be that many factorys producing this type of steel I wouldn't think.
I know its good practice to test each batch you get in. I got in some 15n20 I have never used and did a little test coupon before I did my slipjoint.
 
I notice many of you use steels (stock removal) you have dialed in for grinding and heat treating. It makes sense to really wring out specific steels to get the best performance.

my question is sourcing:

Do you notice a difference between different sources for the "same" steel?

Do different foundrys/suppliers vary in consistency from batch to batch?(Is one producer more consistent than another?)

Do different foundrys/suppliers favor the higher or lower tolerance of a particular alloying component to obtain what they feel is the best "version" of a particular steel?

How many of you multi source steel? By lack of availability from main source or just doesn't matter?

have any of you ever sent out samples of steel for alloy assessment?

Thanks guys.

I'll answer your questions in the order asked and my answers are by no means set in stone. Anyone can feel free to agree or disagree with me.

1. Very little if any.
2. Yes but I wont mention name. There is a ceryain supplier that I wont buy from any longer for this very reason.
3. Probably not. The tolerances for a particular alloy are fairly narrow from the start.
4. I buy from 4-5 sources depending on price and availability.
5. No. For me, the only reason to do so would be to identify a large supply of an unknown alloy.

The main thing I've noticed is in PM steels each generation is better than the last. In my opinion the cleanest and best steels available are the 3rd generation PM steels. For example 20CV is a 1st generation PM steel and M390 is 3rd generation of basically the same alloy but I find that M390 performs a bit better than 20CV. I find that the edge holding is a tad better but the toughness is where the real difference is. I think it has to do with how clean and homogenous M390 is. Does the difference stop me from using 1st generation steels? Of course not, I use em all the time but when the higher generation alloys are available in the size I need then that's what I use. Could I tell the difference in actual real world use? Probably not. The little differences really only show up in careful testing in the shop.
Again, this just my opinion, feel free to disagree with any or all of it. LOL

Edited to add that the last paragraph is for high alloy steels only. When I used the word "best" I was pointing out that the higher generation steels are a tiny bit better than the 1st generation steels. The simpler the alloy, the harder it will be to tell the difference from manufacturer to manufacturer and more so from batch to batch, as long as the specs. are within industry standard.
 
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I notice many of you use steels (stock removal) you have dialed in for grinding and heat treating. It makes sense to really wring out specific steels to get the best performance.
my question is sourcing:
Do you notice a difference between different sources for the "same" steel? I try buy steel from the same maker. I have tried steel from other sources that have the same composition and have seen no difference. That is one of the reasons I use O1 tool steel, the makers must keep composition within pretty tight tolerances.
Do different foundrys/suppliers vary in consistency from batch to batch?(Is one producer more consistent than another?) again, I buy tool steel which seems to have the highest consistency batch to batch
Do different foundrys/suppliers favor the higher or lower tolerance of a particular alloying component to obtain what they feel is the best "version" of a particular steel? my references books say this happened, but there are not many makers of high carbon steel left.
How many of you multi source steel? By lack of availability from main source or just doesn't matter? i buy from different sources, but I buy the same product.
have any of you ever sent out samples of steel for alloy assessment? I have bought a large amount of Starrett O1. they keep composition on file.
Thanks guys.
I am an Ebayer and found some large pieces(8x18, 10x18, and 12x18) of Starrett O1 at very low cost. all pieces were in factory packaging and included lot/batch number. I guess we have to trust our suppliers.
 
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Well since my name was mentioned I will take it as an invite to participate-

1. Yes, sometime more subtle, sometimes, not so subtle. Not so much with simple carbon steels, but very much so with tool steel and other alloyed steel. Steel making is not as exact as we would like to believe and the chemistry will float within a range on many alloys. And then there can be quality differences as well. Occasionally a bad batch will make it to market that has segregation, and other inconsistency's. Back when I could deal with my local Crucible outlet (about 60 miles away) I got a bad batch of O-1 that came apart in forging. Called them up to let them know and 1 hour later the rep I dealt with there was in my driveway with new bars in the back of his vehicle, I really miss dealing with them.

2. Once again, I would say yes. But be aware that tool steel is different since most of it has not been made in the U.S. for many years now, it is all bought on the open market from overseas. Some suppliers will try to match the chemistry somewhat while others won’t, but there will be subtle differences (and some not so subtle) from batch to batch.

3. Another “yes” here. The AISI numbers will only reflect the ideal percentages while the steel can actually fall within a range and still be called 1095, 1084, 5160 etc… Most of the 5160 I have encountered was around .55% carbon maximum and not a full .6%. W2 can have a range of carbon percentage from .75% all the way in excess of 1% and still be called W2, I have even encountered some that contained chromium, which should not be allowed but it was there.

4. Steel that is impossible to find on the normal basis I will take whatever I can get whenever I can get (such as W2, O2 etc.) but I never use them as my mainstay as they are not predictable. I will use the O-2 for a small addition of color to my damascus mix but not to make knives out of by itself. The W2 for special projects where I need the effects, or an example of the effects, that that steel can give.
 
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I'm glad Kevin typed all that.... it saved me a bunch of keystrokes! :) My input is pretty much the same as his.

What I would add is that right now, more so then any other time in my career, "good" steel is more difficult to find/obtain for Knifemakers/Bladesmiths than ever before....maybe a better word to use then good is consistent. That being said, at the present time, I have only 3 sellers of steel that I will purchase from. That's because I trust those sources, and I've been duped too many times by others.

What am I talking about? Ordering a specific steel type, and being sent something totally different, or finding a bargain on steel, only to receive a shipment that is full of flaws or inclusions (in other words seconds) .
An example was a company that advertised flat bar 52100 in Blade magazine several years ago.... I made a small purchase (100lbs), and when I started forging on it, it just didn't feel like 52100 under the hammer. Long story short, they had sent me O1 steel. Thinking a simple error had been made, I contacted the seller with the intent for them to send me the correct steel. I'd had what they sent tested, and had the resulting paperwork in hand, proving that it was O1..... the response I got just about knocked me over. They knew it was O1, but were selling it as 52100! The individual I was speaking with actually told me..... "It's close enough." :confused: There have been other instances too, but that one was the most ludicrous example.

What Kevin said in his #3 response is exactly why I no longer use or recommend 1095.....Those who have had issues hardening 1095, and/or have contacted me for help with the issues know
The AISI numbers will only reflect the ideal percentages while the steel can actually fall within a range and still be called 1095


Steel that is impossible to find on the normal basis I will take whatever I can get whenever I can get
When my trusted sources have a given steel available, I will always buy as much as I can afford at the time. It's only going to get more expensive, and it won't go bad on the shelf!

Finally, since the thread was started with stock removal in mind, the ONLY source I trust for stainless types of steel are the folks who used to run Crucible....... http://sb-specialty-metals.com/
That's certainly not a dig against any other supplier(s), it's just that I too dealt with Crucible for a long time, and they earned my trust.
 
Wow...thanks all. much as I had suspected but not having the experience to say yea or nay.

A few years back Scott Livsey showed us a deal on O-1....I stocked up. It was all made by Sheffield(at least the stuff I got in) in original paper with composition printed on it.I would guess from the 60s-70s era. Heat treats great.

I used some O-1 a few months back that was from my stash of machinist goodies. I always mark material ON THE MATERIAL with sharpie or better. So I am sure it was O-1....but machined a bit different and ground (soft) a bit different(I would have used the word "gummier")...thus the questions above. I just kept thinking how natural it is for us to think things outside our control must just be peachy....lol.

I am working with A-2 now and think that every batch of knives will need a test coupon that is taken through the entire process....HT, cold, temper, temper,.....and then RC tested multiple places and then snapped and checked under a microscope for grain?
 
I am just going to stay with 1084 from Aldo maybe later try some A2 I think if I got a raw deal like Ed did I would've gone crazy.
 
I am just going to stay with 1084 from Aldo maybe later try some A2 I think if I got a raw deal like Ed did I would've gone crazy.
no issues with Aldo, good steel. but his 1084 not available thinner than 1/8". I would suggest O1 before trying A2. O1 heat treats almost the same as 1084. A2 needs a heat treat similar to stainless, but offers none of the bonuses.
 
no issues with Aldo, good steel. but his 1084 not available thinner than 1/8". I would suggest O1 before trying A2. O1 heat treats almost the same as 1084. A2 needs a heat treat similar to stainless, but offers none of the bonuses.
Well you made my mind up then 1084 and keep it simple!
 
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