People who blatantly and fraudulently sell knives as hand made when they are blanks..

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What you all consider 'ethical'. This is very important to me.
Here in lies the issue, there is legal and then ethical. If someone is misrepresenting their products they may be fraudulent. Since knifemaking is not covered by a governing body or association that is recognized by the government then the profession of knifemaking dose not legally exist therefore just about anything goes.

Ethics are as different as each individual person and are defined by our life experiences and influences. The law applies to everyone (I'm Canadian so mine are different) but ethics only apply to one person, you.

So to cut to the point. What I consider the requirements of a knifemaker apply to only me and no one else, until the government establishes a standard. Instead of asking "is this guy a knifemaker" it may be better to ask "why dose it matter". Each of us making and selling knives has to do what they think is best and hope that satisfies their customers.
 
Thank you for your responses. I decided what I will become in the knife world 'a custom knife collaborator". In every industry, 'subs' are used, like electricians, plumbers, and the like. The contractor gets the credit and one of the reasons is because he uses great subs. He will be proud to say he subs with, because he knows they are proud of their work. OK some times they fight :) :).

I still think the subs should get more credit for their work...Teddy
 
Just to add my $0.02 now that I'm coming in late to the discussion............

Those who fraudulently misrepresent their skills within our passion are quickly discovered. I have personally run into several examples of these guys in my travels over the past several years. Ironically enough, those who practice these deceptive tactics most always use the EXACT SAME models which they claim to be of their own craftsmanship. If you ever wish to test them, simply as them to produce you one in different dimensions (ie. longer or wider blade) they'll quickly claim that they never deviate from their "market proven" patterns.

Lastly, I will leave you with a brief story and words of wisdom which were shared with me when I got more serious about knife making and began purchasing equipment and supplies 3-4 years ago......

I placed an order for 5 gallons of Park's 50 quenchant from Kelly Cupples. When I asked him how he wanted payment, he told me, "When you receive the shipment, there will be an invoice. Just mail me a check once you get it". I was amazed that someone I didn't know would ship me supplies (approximately $200 w/shipping) and not expect payment up front. When I shared this story with a mentor of mine he told me.......

"The world of knife making is one of the last places where your word is truly your bond. Never break that honor or your reputation will be worthless."

Make knives the way you make them. If you wish to complete kits as that is the skill level you are at, by all means do that. Just be honest and never misrepresent yourself.
 
I have been talking to a chap who wants me to teach him to make knives. We spoke and I asked him to show me the pattern he wanted to use. (I'd told him I can help with theoretical knife making and nothing more.) He said not to worry because he has been finishing blanks for years. The point is that he didn't consider himself a knife maker.

I think that anyone who makes part of a knife should have their mark on it, as with the sheath. If I were to buy a blank I would want the mark of the person who made it, not the company and I would place my mark beneath it. Aside from lying about making it I think a major ethical point is taking credit from the guy who did the grinding.

I like the idea of collaboration on a knife but only where both people are recognised. I think that's all I have to say about that.
 
alright guys,as most of you know I am , by trade a service provider and woodsmith, that being said , I also build some custom knives.my question is , when I design a knife from a sketch, have it cut to my specs , ground to my specs , sent to petters for heat treat,then back to the same professional that cut and ground it ,to clean it up ,all with my specs in mind , then after meeting with the customer and deciding how and what shape and wood and pins and what finish they want on the knife what part of custom hand made knife am I missing , and yes I tell them I have the blanks professionally done. all comments welcome
 
I think that would make you a cutler, not a knife maker. You are subbing out the cutting, grinding, and heat treatment then assemble the knives. There's nothing wrong with that. It's the way that it was done back in the days of the work guilds. I would just tell the buyer that you produced these knives and fill them in on the details if they ask. I think that it would be a little misleading to say that you actually made the knives. You're still working with knife blanks even if they were made for you according to your design. I know that leaves the question of how much is enough work to claim being the maker; I just don't think what you do reaches that level.

Doug
 
alright guys,as most of you know I am , by trade a service provider and woodsmith, that being said , I also build some custom knives.my question is , when I design a knife from a sketch, have it cut to my specs , ground to my specs , sent to petters for heat treat,then back to the same professional that cut and ground it ,to clean it up ,all with my specs in mind , then after meeting with the customer and deciding how and what shape and wood and pins and what finish they want on the knife what part of custom hand made knife am I missing , and yes I tell them I have the blanks professionally done. all comments welcome

Faron,
The original part of this thread may have been deleted because Bossdog rightly didn't want to condemn someone in the court of public opinion.

The Person this thread was originally about stated that he ground each blade himself when it was fairly clear that several of "His" Knife patterns were available from catalogs.

I use the term Sole authorship to describe my custom knives.. I design, grind & handle each one of my knives myself. I do have the blanks water jet cut and have Paul Bos heat Treatment do the HT work and I tell each of my customers that.

So, A custom knife maker, Cutler, Kit builder or whatever. Just be upfront about what you do and don't claim credit for something you didn't preform.

Laurence

www.rhinoknives.com
 
I was always under the impression that sole authorship means you contract NOTHING out.

Not that having blanks water jet and heat treated makes the knife any less yours, just as not rolling or casting the steel makes a knife any less custom.

I guess it's more an issue of semantics.

Doug raises a good question though:
How much is enough? ;)


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
I was always under the impression that sole authorship means you contract NOTHING out.

Not that having blanks water jet and heat treated makes the knife any less yours, just as not rolling or casting the steel makes a knife any less custom.

I guess it's more an issue of semantics.

Doug raises a good question though:
How much is enough? ;)


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Someone said that to make a pie from scratch you have to create a whole universe. I believe what they meant was that no matter what you do there will always be part of your work that you didn't do yourself. Because I send my knives for HT I won't claim sole authorship but it doesn't detract from the knife. It's my shonky plunges doing that.
 
Thanks for all the responses across the spectrum.

My biggest hang up with this person, is that #1 he lies. He claims that a $12.50 bread knife blank is made from ATS-34 when I know it's made from 440C. That is absolute misrepresentation of a product and frankly I think he should have legal action against him for it. IF...(and this is a HUGE if)...by some stretch of the imagination, he copied the blank design and found someone to reproduce it in ATS-34, he must have found a true mimic who can copy even machine finish marks...because that blade looks IDENTICAL to the one on the supplier's site. Which I highly doubt. His thoughts were probably "How can I turn this $75 knife into a $600 knife...lie about material quality."

He claims that he has spent years refining his blade designs...when they are obviously not his own. There is only one blade that I found on his site that I had a hard time finding online, I found one but I am not 100% sure it's the same. Last night, however, in the back cover of the new Blade magazine (the one with the toxic green/orange ESEE on the front), there's an ad for a manufacturing company...and in the ad, at the bottom, low and behold is a picture of a run of these particular knives and his company name.

It just really pisses me off that he is burning people so badly, and they have no idea.
 
Here in lies the issue, there is legal and then ethical. If someone is misrepresenting their products they may be fraudulent. Since knifemaking is not covered by a governing body or association that is recognized by the government then the profession of knifemaking dose not legally exist therefore just about anything goes.

Brad has some good points concerning that there really isn't a set in stone terminology for what is a Knife Maker, Cutler Handler, Hobbist etc.


I was always under the impression that sole authorship means you contract NOTHING out.

Andrew,
Once again there is the problem of set definitions of these terms. I didn't smelt the ore or grow the trees for the handles ether.

"Sole Author with saying I have the heat treatment done by a professional and blanks water jet cut of the stainless steels of my choice".

This is the least "wordy" way, I have found to honestly and correctly describe my process. It is open to review as our terminology evolves as makers and as a society at large. New words are added to the English language every year.

For a funny example, here is a word that was added in the pass few years.

Octomom

A single, unemployed, welfare recipient mother of six children who goes on to have even more fertility treatments on the government's dime and gives birth to octuplets, without any real concrete or solid plans for how she is going to be able to support herself and 14 children.

I don't know if its in Wester's yet? But this is from Urban Dictionary. There is another from a medical dictionary. :what!:

So we will have new lingo and definitions for Knife makers, Cutlers, Sole Authorship and the like as time passes. LOL

Laurence

www.rhinoknives.com
 
The main point is the lying. If you are intentionally deceiving the customer regarding the varying points of the build, that's a problem.

The degree to which you are personally involved in the manufacture of a knife you sell as custom is moot as long as you are honest with the customer. Can you call yourself a custom knife-maker if you don't do more than 80% of the work yourself? Sure. I say that because the knife you produce is still a one-of-a-kind knife.
 
Just an FYI, this same thread was brought up in another well known forum/community, and the maker in question did issue a couple of responses.

While it is my opinion that there was a lot of "beating around the bush" and dodging of specific questions, it appears that the maker did in fact change/remove some specific verbage on his website which may have heavily implied that his knives were custom.

He further admitted to using CNC made blanks on a portion of his work, and to having a moderate investment in the "machining operations" (implying outsource) regarding his product.

I can only speculate to the degree of satisfaction (or lack thereof) that this might bring to current or former clients of his, who probably thought they were receiving a handmade knife (again, still speculation on my part), but in the mean time, it does appear that things have become more "honest" concerning the "custom" nature of the knives in question.

While he has yet to come out and directly state that "yes, my knives are made from blanks that I simply put the handles on", he's not exactly saying/implying that "I custom hand make these knives from start to finish, from blade to sheath, etc..."

Im my opinion, that's an improvement from where things were.
 
Samuel Johnson wrote in 1750 on hypocrisy;
"Nothing is more unjust, however common, than to charge with hypocrisy him that expresses zeal for those virtues which he neglects to practice; since he may be sincerely convinced of the advantages of conquering his passions, without having yet obtained the victory, as a man may be confident of the advantages of a voyage, or a journey, without having courage or industry to undertake it, and may honestly recommend to others, those attempts which he neglects himself"

Personally I think honesty should now be a superpower...
I deal with a lot of "American Made" manufacturers that use imported parts..Always have and unless we ban trade, always will but is the product still American made? Or simply an American company assembling contracted out imported parts?...

Sole Authorship..Now there is a can of worms that should be left to the lawyers of writers, they've been arguing about it for decades...Only so many words...

I do consider us as Artists, just happen to work in different mediums than the norm...

art·ist (ärtst)
n.
1. One, such as a painter, sculptor, or writer, who is able by virtue of imagination and talent or skill to create works of aesthetic value, especially in the fine arts.
2. A person whose work shows exceptional creative ability or skill:
3. One, such as an actor or singer, who works in the performing arts.
4. One who is adept at an activity, especially one involving trickery or deceit:

Although I didn't see anything about beatin' on hot iron in there....but re-read #4, there might be hope...

I make a lot of stuff from re-used iron, I tann hides but also trade for some...
I re-model a lot of old knives with new/old handles, sheaths, beads, ect...Is it any less mine if I start out with an antique and recreate the past or what I think could be the past...Lot of re's in there to be original....
I also copy from photos and paintings, does that make me a copy artist..or a thief?

I don't see a lot of really new things in the knife making world today that can't be traced to the past so I think we stand on the shoulders of giants, add some of our blood in it and call it mine...or yours...or ours..or whomever wants to buy it...

Tracy said back in this thread, "They aren't frauds. They make knives at a different level."
I believe that sums it up, be as honest as you can stand to be...and buy my stuff.....
 
While there can always be (and WILL always be) many efforts expended towards the the extrapolation of certain definitions or semantics, certain things really are more black and white, regardless of how some would try to spin them or explain them.

What if, for example, a stock removal maker claims to have forged his stock removal knife? Very few would argue that a knife made by either method isn't a knife, but if you do it one way, only to say you did it the other, then you are a liar.

But then one might bring up the fact that the stock removal maker used a damascus billet, which WAS forged. Or perhaps you could say that the flat stock was technically "roll forged" at the steel mill it came from.

However you want to spin it, the fact remains that the knife was not forged in a traditional sense, and can never be viewed as such.

There are different kinds of lies. Some lie by omission, or even by giving a partial truth, and some lie simply by stating things that aren't true. It may not even be intentional, as sometimes we may speak from ignorance, or convey a message that we really did not intend. That said, it's really not that hard to be specific...

If I buy a knife blank, put a handle on it, and sell it, that doesn't necessarily mean that I'm trying to pass it off as a custom, completely hand made knife. I may simply say "I would like to sell this knife I worked on". That's all well and good.
Now someone MAY take that as meaning I made the whole knife, blade included. That in and of itself is just a misunderstanding, and no dishonesty has taken place; only a miscommunication.

Now, if somebody asks flat out "is this a completely handmade knife" and I say "I worked on this knife from the time I started, until the time I finished, and the whole time, I used my hands", then we start to see dishonesty. While the above statement is technically true (in and of itself), the fact remains that I have not answered the specific question asked, and may even be trying to imply something that isn't true, while not directly saying it.

In my opinion, THAT is the ultimate problem here. Not necessarily HOW the knives are made (or even the semantics behind what is or isn't a "custom knife"), but how the owner in question was portraying his knives (intentional or not), despite specific questions being asked to the contrary.
 
I hate to be the one to say it, but I honestly believe we have beaten this horse to death. We can all agree to have our own opinion, but I believe we all also agree that honesty is always the best policy. Full disclosure of your acts is the key to success.

It is of my personal opinion that it is about time to close this thread.
 
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