Pakistan Demascus. What’s the story?

[Smallshop]

Is there such a thing as a "certified" maker of damascus or would you buy the steel from a certified supplier of steel and make your own.

How many non-MS's test there damascus blades in a ABS fashion? It is probably safe to say not many. Myself I have never bent one of my damascus blades over 90°. At my level I'll keep my hard work. lol,,,,

Naw...certified steels are good, but in my fairly unqualified opinion...the process is most of where the wrong turns happen...Ed is a master smith. The testing is fairly rigorous...for good reason. I would buy any of his work with no qualms.

When a guy has been making Damascus for 4 months...no in depth understanding of metallurgy so to speak...and begins selling blades...would you buy one? Might be a great blade....might not.

I'm just not a risk taker anymore. About 6 years ago I went to the Pasadena Ca show with my brother...he has some high quality knives...but stopped at a booth run by a very nice man from Pakistan...who sold him a knife for about $50. Beautiful looking hunter...decent finish. I turned and walked away to look at some other knives...He was irritated that I walked away...as if I was a snob. I told him that that knife would never leave his property because he could not trust that blade and he knew he could not trust that blade...so it's good for home use I guess. he got kind of quiet when I said that....it's not about whether a particular blade is good or not...it's can you trust it? Really?

The only way you can trust a blade is to trust the maker. Period. That's why we all are trying hard to build good reputations....Anything else is wishful thinking...and a roll o' the dice.

If I personally knew a Damascus maker that was not an ABS smith...but I knew his process and his work habits and philosophy of excellence...the continuity of his craftsmanship...a few years of making under his belt...yeah I'd buy a blade from him. Once again...all these criteria stack up to trust...

Unfortunately the older I get the less I trust about anyone...LOL!

 

[J. Doyle]

Its up to each individual to set and maintain they're own quality control. The market will (eventually) weed out the sub-par.

Letters after a makers name are just that.....letters. It doesn't AUTOMATICALLY make it a good knife. It SHOULD but its not a guarantee.

I would just about bet the number of makers that care about and test the performance of their knives and aren't affiliated with the ABS far outnumber the total number of mastersmiths.

I'd also bet there are a few mastersmiths out there that don't ever test their blades and don't care about performance.

As for the test....I'd hate for anyone to assume there is any kind of rigorous performance testing done in the actual performance portion of the test. Being able to bend doesn't make a good knife blade. The ONLY thing that test proves is that the smith has a grasp of metallurgy and control over the steel. Far too many think a bent blade is some mystical super power of quality.

I bet obtaining the rating of Mastersmith (and journeymansmith) have far more to do with the fit/finish/symmetry than the performance test. The performance test could *probably* be done with a mild steel blade.

I'm not discrediting or disparaging ANY work or effort of any MS or JS. I have many ABS friends and I'm persuing that avenue myself. But I wanted to be clear about some of the test parameters.

The takeaway is this: someone being an MS or JS doesn't automatically make your products good and likewise, someone can make incredible products without being affiliated with the ABS at all.

 

[Chris Railey]

I agree with John. I use many of the ABS tests on my blades. In my opinion, they are great tests of geometry and heat treat. But once I had a grasp on those I moved into making my knives more suited to their purpose. Kitchen knives that slice like a laser and feel good in the hand, etc. Now I have a grasp on that my weaker area is symmetry and finish so I am working on that now. Do the ABS requirements cover all of those things? Yes, I believe they do but in the end I would bet that what KEEPS Ed and John making the very best knives they can comes from within not the ABS. That being said, there is NOTHING wrong with the ABS stuff. Just my opinion.

 

[KenH]

what KEEPS Ed and John making the very best knives they can comes from within not the ABS

Chris, so well spoken.

 

[springer82]

Chris is right. Like any other learning experience not just the ABS. What you do with the lessons they teach you comes from within.

 

[EdCaffreyMS]

Not sure how we got from Pakistan Damascus to the ABS.....but so be it.

I've been through the entire process, from Apprentice, to Mastersmith. I have helped several others navigate their route through the process too. I've also judged at both the JS and MS levels many times.... and have been asked to serve on the Board of Directors. I know not only the processes, but the requirements, and why tests were designed, and implemented as they were/are.

What most who have not been through the entire process do not understand or realize is that the ABS tests were created as a MINIMUM standard chosen by the organization, for the organization's members, who wish to pursue the JS and/or MS ratings. I think Chris said it without realizing it...... One of the things that the ABS does, is allow for any individual to "step out/off" at any point and purse those things that are not prescribed by the ABS....... such as the personal refinement of one's knives, handles. designs, etc. Hence, one of the reasons the testing standards are consider minimum standards. The only time/thing that the ABS dictates is when it comes to the JS or MS performance and presentation.....and rightly so. Aside from that, members are free to make their knives in any manner they wish.

I have seen times when a Board member(s) step in when a member of the ABS has done something questionable, and a client has asked for resolution....but it's the exception rather then the norm. And again...rightly so....because there is a standard, and the members represent the organization.

The ABS doesn't force anyone to join or complete the required steps for either JS or MS..... it's a CHOICE of an individual. However, what I must point out is...... at least the ABS does have prescribed standards that it's members must meet for both Performance and Presentation....IF THEY CHOOSE TO DO SO.... which is more than another other "knife" organization.

The ABS is one of a number of paths available to a Bladesmith/Knifemaker..... the choice to pursue it, is up to the individual. You either choose to do it, or not.

Does being a member impact a maker's level of quality/workmanship? How can it not? When you expose yourself to some of the best Bladesmiths/Knifemakers in the world, and provided you're paying attention, how could you not pick up some things along the way?? I know I certainly did on my journey from Apprentice to Mastersmith.

In today's world the biggest problem is that people are LAZY....and they want it yesterday. The ABS does NOT spoon feed anyone....the knowledge and experience are there in front of it's members.....but it's up to the individual to go and get it.

My biggest pet peeve when it comes to this type of discussion is with those who downplay or criticize the ABS, and/or it's procedures/standards/methods with a lack of knowledge...... while doing it from the safety of the outside looking in.....or worse, being a member, and straddling the fence.

Sure, everybody is entitled to an opinion, but it should at least be a minimally informed one...rather then just throwing crap at the wall, and seeing what sticks. And yes, I will freely admit that I get a bit touchy when folks start criticizing an organization, that without question has done more for the art/craft of Bladesmithing then any other.

OK, I've said my piece, and I'll leave it alone from here.

 

[KenH]

My biggest pet peeve when it comes to this type of discussion is with those who downplay or criticize the ABS, and/or it's procedures/standards/methods with a lack of knowledge

Ed, please do understand I don't think anyone here is belittling or downplaying the ABS certification at all - certainly not me. "JS" and then "MS" after a person's name to me says that person had paid a price in blood, sweat, and tears (and money) to achieve the certification. I think the comments were aimed more toward the idea there are some GREAT knifemakers who are NOT certificated, and do test their blades in an effort to make the best knife possible. Like a self educated person.... Bill Gates who is a college drop out?

All I can say about "MS" is WOW!! That's why early in this thread I expressed appreciation that MS was recognized as a "Master's degree". I can understand why it would be.

Ken H>

 

[J. Doyle]

My biggest pet peeve when it comes to this type of discussion is with those who downplay or criticize the ABS, and/or it's procedures/standards/methods with a lack of knowledge...... while doing it from the safety of the outside looking in.....or worse, being a member, and straddling the fence.

Sure, everybody is entitled to an opinion, but it should at least be a minimally informed one...rather then just throwing crap at the wall, and seeing what sticks. And yes, I will freely admit that I get a bit touchy when folks start criticizing .......

I sure didn't see anyone doing that in this discussion.


But.........

IF you're going to buy damascus, ASK A LOT OF QUESTIONS, and buyer beware! IMO, find yourself an ABS Mastersmith who sells damascus.....or go to Chad Nichols Damascus.......... As far as I'm concerned, anywhere else and your just rolling the dice.

That sure sounds like if you're not a M.S. or chad Nichols there's a decent chance you can't make good damascus. Which would be completely false. I can think of a dozen J.S. that make killer Damascus and a dozen non ABS guys that make awesome damascus without thinking too hard about it. And some of the best and most popular creating/teaching/sharing info is coming from non ABS guys.

Likewise, I have personally seen knives at shows from M.S. makers that featured grainy, muddy, poorly finished damascus that they made.

As for makers testing blades:

As to how many non MS test their Damascus blades? Honestly I think it's a pretty small percentage.

That's not true of the couple dozen guys I mentioned above. There are a whole bunch of non ABS guys that care a whole ton about testing and performance......some of them care about it a whole lot more than finishing and selling knives. One of them is an occasional poster on this forum.

..... but all the MS that I know follow pretty strict testing (that they've created) for their Damascus blades. Therein lies one of the differences between those who've achieved their MS, and the garden variety person who calls themselves a "Bladesmith".

Again this sounds like nobody but a M.S. cares about performance or quality.

Which always lead me to believe that many makers will build knives, but never test them in any manner that is meaningful...or in other words, just assume it's good and send it on it's way.

Being a M.S. doesn't make one immune to the above mindset.

As for the ABS performance test itself, I realize they are MINIMUM standards, but I stand by what I said.

We all know that chopping a 2x4 twice (that the person testing can pick/provide themself) and slicing a 1" free hanging manilla rope one time doesn't necessarily indicate a high performance blade.

And I still think its possible that that could be done with a mild steel blade.

There are no other performance testing standards at any level that the ABS endorses or enforces that I am aware of.

Again, I'm not down on the ABS....I'm a member and am persuing my J.S. stamp. I understand the tests and the reasons for them. My whole point is being a M.S. or a J.S. doesn't automatically guarantee quality work any more than NOT being in the ABS guarantees shoddy work.