Normalization, Grain Refinement, Austenitizing, Tempering… Warps and Timing Questions

Delta Handmade Knives

Well-Known Member
From what I have been able to formulate the overall high-level heat treat process goes something like this:
  • Normalize – releases stress and re-grows new grain structure from a known point.
  • Grain Refinement – Reduces the grain size. Produces smaller and more evenly distributed carbides.
  • Annealing – (optional?)
  • Austenitizing/quench
  • Temper (two cycles)
That is a lot of heating and cooling for one blade. Warping is likely. Also, the timing of all this comes into question.

Regarding blade warping: With all of that heating and cooling the blade has a high chance of warping. It seems that using a straightening jig to hold the blade straight during tempering might be a good way to fix blades that warp but I have not tried this yet. Does anyone have any feedback on this?

How do the more experienced folks here deal with warped blades and what stage of the HT process do you correct that if it happens?

Regarding the timing of operations: Is there a difference in how much time is allowed to pass between stages? For example. I have seen videos where the normalizing and such is done right before the final austenitizing heat treat. But what if I normalize/etc. one day and then shelf the blade for a couple of weeks until I am ready to do the final hardening/quench? Does anyone know if this make a difference in the properties of the final product?

Thank you for entertaining my silly questions and have a great Sunday!
 
There are better people here to answer these questions but I will give you somewhere to start until they come along.
It is important to not only know what a specific treatment does but why one would want to use a specific treatment. Take annealing for example. Annealing is used to get a steel to its softest state to make it more machinable. IMO annealing is also hard to accomplish without exact temp control to make sure something only cools at a rate not to exceed 50 degrees an hour for example. Normalizing is used to relieve internal stresses in the steel that are caused from the forging process or when the steel was made at the foundry. Reliving those stresses will help the steel not to warp when you harden it (and other stuff). So the point is you may or may not use every step you have read about depending on what you are trying to accomplish and the condition of your steel.

As to warping. Steel can warp for a few different reasons. Simply laying a hot piece of steel on a surface on one side can cause it to cool quicker on that side inducing a warp. In my opinion I do not have much trouble with steel warping until I use thicknesses under 1/8”.

Timing of the different depends on where you are at In your build and to some degree your preference. Nothing is set in stone most of the time but there are some common sense choices to be made. If you are doing stock removal I would want to anneal right away to make the steel easier to work with my tools. If I were forging a blade I would want to normalize before I hardened the blade so I could reduce warps for example. If I am working thin stock I made profile the blade then harden it and grind my bevels.

Understanding what each does inside the steel is important but it also helps to understand why you would want to do each step.

Here is a top notch reference for future study. http://www.cashenblades.com/info.html

Others way smarter than me should chime in here but this is a good place to start.
 
Thank you for your confidence in me Chris. I am quick to say that I am not the final authority on what happens inside of your blade, but I do insist on always backing my recommendations up with solid data and facts, while asking you never to take anybody's opinion or word for it, including my own, without that same evidence.

The link you provided will only be operational for a short time longer. I am rebuilding my website and the new information will be here:
https://cashenblades.com/bladesmithing-information/
 
The timing and application of the different thermal treatments are all based on what changes you are hoping affect in the steel. To the key question of distortion, the contributing factors are endless and uncountable, but the root cause is always the same- uneven potential energy created by strain effects in the steel.

We like to think that we eliminate distortion entirely when we completely eliminate "stress", but there will always be some level of stored energy in the steel, or it wouldn't be steel; that energy is just part of the metallic crystalline system. And, at times we want to impart unbelievable levels of strain energy into that system- that is what hardening actually is. The key to to have that energy distributed evenly.

Now I put the word stress in quotes because knifemakers almost universally use it incorrectly in the technical sense; so much so that I also use it the same way in order for most folks to understand, but occasionally a student of metallurgy will read what I wrote and say shame on me for my error. Think of "stress" as a verb- we stress the steel by applying a load or force, like bending or hitting it with a hammer. The result of this action is
"strain", a noun describing the effect our "stress" had on the steel.

As I mentioned before, the nature or the metallic crystalline matrix is that there will always be some level of stored energy, whether we ourselves stressed the steel or not. The key is reducing it to levels appropriate to what we wish to do with the steel, and making sure that it is evenly distributed.

Here is an example of how we can play with this system- we have a katana blade that has its strain energy at its lowest and evenly distributed throughout; it is straight and soft. We then apply clay to the upper 2/3 of the blade in order to prevent the stress of the quench from affecting that portion. This loads the bottom, edge portion, with strain energy during the quench, resulting in a curved blade coming out of the quench.

Forging is also a matter of strain energy- the deformation is a result of the metal absorbing energy from the hammer blows, resulting in strain effects. The opposite would be something like flexing the steel, stress is applied, but it is insufficient to overcome the strength of the system and thus the energy is not stored but is released after load is removed and the steel is unchanged.
 
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I decided to break this into two posts to keep it easier to follow. As to the number of heats resulting in distortion- only if it produces strain effects and, more importantly, uneven strain effects. Just heating the steel could induce, or reduce strain energy, depending on how you cool it. When you bring a steel to glowing you have thrown more energy at it than all the bending and hammering you could ever do, but the conductive nature of the metal makes it want to distribute that energy evenly, so we have to do something wrong in our heating to overcome its self regulating behavior. Heating very unevenly will do this, as will cooling very unevenly.

I teach a method of heating for normalizing, and other treatments, in a forge that better deals with a critical point in the heating process- decalescence. At 1335°F the steels expansion and taking on of thermal energy drastically changes as it makes a profound crystalline shift to put things into solution. The steel stops expanding and begins contracting, and the glow dims as it starts sucking up much more energy to accomplish this shift. If you have a very thin section attached to a very thick section, this lag will be exacerbated by the thermal mass differences, and the process of decalescence will fight you in evenly heating. This could produce warpage, but it will most likely result in your tip or your edge overheating before you spine comes up to temp. So I teach my students how to choke back the forge and gradually approach decalescence and, when the shadows have left the steel, then hit it with the high heat. They are always amazed at how the steel will heat completely evenly at this point with no overheating of tip or edge. The steels natural conductivity can now handle the energy without decalescence messing with it. By the way- stock removers simply call this a pre-heat or a presoak, sometimes us anvil jockeys can learn a thing or two from those grinder guys.

But, by far, the greatest potential in getting uneven strain energy is in cooling. On cooling there are several temperatures where the steel can expand or the opposite effects of releasing more energy can fight us in the same way; the more evenly we can cool the steel the better. This is why normalizing MUST be done in still air even to be considered normalizing. A blade laid on its side is a guaranteed warp.

Normalizing: This is not to be confused with "stress relieving" as that is a different heat treatment entirely. Normalizing is exactly that- it normalizes the internal condition of the steel making it uniform. Uniformity in grain size, uniformity in phases and carbide condition/distribution. Normalizing may actually add a buttload of strain energy but it is designed to add it evenly and uniformly; thus no warpage. Normalizing is your number one tool to eliminate distortion later on. If your blade warps during a proper normalization, the effects were not complete- repeat the normalizing until the distortion goes away, or it will come back later.

Annealing: Its purpose is very straight forward- to make the steel soft. All steel can benefit from it, but it is not always necessary with 10XX steels. Anything with alloying should be annealed if you are going to machine it and the same applies any 10XX above .8% C. I strongly discourage the old practice of lamellar annealing (heating to nonmagnetic and slow cooling in the forge or vermiculite) as it requires that some of the benefits of normalizing and grain refining be undone and it can be outright bad for many steels. Spheroidal annealing is subcritical and thus does not remove any effects of previous beneficial treatments. Any annealing operation done properly (evenly) will reduce distortion.

Stress Relieving: Using thermal energy to annihilate strain energy begins at relatively low temperatures, like tempering temperatures, but the effects are very thorough at temperatures exceeding 1000°F. Heating the steel to 1200°F will wipe out strain effects stored in the steel while not touching the effects of normalizing, grain refinement, or annealing. What this treatment does is resets all the 'mis-alignments" in the atomic lattice of the metal, but it cannot move the phases, alloys, or carbide distributions, so if your normalizing or annealing didn't do their jobs this treatment cannot overcome that.

Hardening: Its very purpose is to load the steel with as much strain energy as possible, so it had better be done evenly. The problem is that the variables that can produce uneven stress in the quench are infinite, so it is the number one producer of warps. This is the heat treatment that repeating will unavoidably result in uneven strain energy. The best bet is to revisit one of the previous treatments for a "reset" before running the gauntlet again.
 
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Regarding timing. The only critical step is tempering, and frankly, people seem to get away with a lot. Once you quench steel, stress is literally growing as the austenite to martensite conversion occurs, and continues to do so for a very, very long time. So it is highly recommended that blades are tempered as soon as the steel reaches ambient temperature.

As far as the other steps, rolled steel from the mill has been hot forged, then processed in some manner that resembles the forge, normalize, and anneal schedule. Some steel you get is ready to austentize, some is not.

It follows then that if you forge a blade to shape, that normalizing and annealing is part of that process. In a practical sense, it also allows you to drill holes, file and grind more easily. You should always complete that process immediately after forging. As forged steel can get out of sorts and break easily, and might be impossible to drill. So there's no up side to pausing that process.
 
Regarding blade warping: With all of that heating and cooling the blade has a high chance of warping. It seems that using a straightening jig to hold the blade straight during tempering might be a good way to fix blades that warp but I have not tried this yet. Does anyone have any feedback on this?

How do the more experienced folks here deal with warped blades and what stage of the HT process do you correct that if it happens?

Regarding the timing of operations: Is there a difference in how much time is allowed to pass between stages? For example. I have seen videos where the normalizing and such is done right before the final austenitizing heat treat. But what if I normalize/etc. one day and then shelf the blade for a couple of weeks until I am ready to do the final hardening/quench? Does anyone know if this make a difference in the properties of the final product?

Thank you for entertaining my silly questions and have a great Sunday!

Tempering is the absolute least likely thermal treatment to produce distortion, unless the blade is laying on it side or touching another blade, i.e. heated unevenly, during the initial heat up right after hardening. There are, however, plenty of opportunities during tempering, to straighten blades warped in previous heat treatments.

The only treatments where timing between them is a major factor is the time from as-quenched to the first tempering cycle. All the rest, being driven by diffusion, are fairly static so long as the temperature they are stored at remains the same. Hardening, however, is a diffusionless, shear based process that creates unstable phases that could give you grief by delaying a stabilizing diffusional based treatment. To put that in English- temper right away if you don't want to see a warp or hear a gut wrenching "ping" overnight.
 
Regarding timing. The only critical step is tempering, and frankly, people seem to get away with a lot. Once you quench steel, stress is literally growing as the austenite to martensite conversion occurs, and continues to do so for a very, very long time. So it is highly recommended that blades are tempered as soon as the steel reaches ambient temperature.

As far as the other steps, rolled steel from the mill has been hot forged, then processed in some manner that resembles the forge, normalize, and anneal schedule. Some steel you get is ready to austentize, some is not.

It follows then that if you forge a blade to shape, that normalizing and annealing is part of that process. In a practical sense, it also allows you to drill holes, file and grind more easily. You should always complete that process immediately after forging. As forged steel can get out of sorts and break easily, and might be impossible to drill. So there's no up side to pausing that process.
^^^^What he said!^^^^
 
How do the more experienced folks here deal with warped blades and what stage of the HT process do you correct that if it happens?
This can (should?) be dealt with at every stage, when noticed. Uneven grinds can are probably the biggest cause of warping, so should be dealt with during grinding. If you're past the point of wanting to grind any more, then warping that's noticed during the normalizing/grain refinement/annealing is usually dealt with by simple bending. (Some VERY experienced smiths will even do this successfully immediately after the quenching, but this is very risky.) It's safer to deal with the warping that happens during the quench in the 2nd tempering cycle. Attempting this on the first tempering cycle will most likely end up in the "gut-wrenching ping" that Ed mentioned.
Many makers deal with quench warps with what's commonly referred to as a 'straightening' jig. What I use for this is 2 pieces of angle iron, small rare earth magnets, and c-clamps, overcorrecting the warp slightly in the opposite direction, and running through additional temper cycles. Don't worry if it doesn't happen on the first attempt, and don't worry if you over-correct. Multiple tempering cycles won't ruin the steel. (I've been playing around with how thin can I grind pre-HT, and recently had to run a nakiri through 7 tempering cycles to get the edge straight enough for finish grinding. That blade was too thin, btw :rolleyes:.)
Another popular option for correcting warping after HT is using a light hammer with a small carbide point and hammering on the convex side to expand the steel on that side of the blade to straighten. You can search the web for more info on ways to straighten blades for more detailed info.
 
Gentlemen. Kevin especially. Thank you very much for these insightful replies.

I am enjoying reading them and looking forward to putting this new understanding to practice.
 
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