need quick Bader III feedback

Travis Fry

Well-Known Member
I've been planning to get a KMG after much research, and just came across a mega-killer-awesome deal on a Bader III ($1650 for a 2hp @@V variable speed with 8 and 2 inch wheels, belts, mounting plate, flat platen...). I expect to have to move quickly to get it. Can anyone give any feedback on these? Pros and cons? Should I spring for it or keep waiting? Is this as good a deal as it appears?
 
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Sounds like a great deal, even if there are cons to a bader (I've only tried clones of each and found them equally nice) the deal would be enough to make me overlook them.
 
KMG 8" package $920
http://www.factorymation.com/s.nl/it.A/id.196/.f?sc=2&category=32 $145
2" wheel- $65
https://www.surpluscenter.com/item.asp?item=10-2387&catname=electric $185

Thats $1315 plus shipping

Plus another say $100 for other stuff like wire, switch, potentiometer, filters for VFD box etc.

$1415 + shipping. Maybe $150 for all the shipping (guesstimate)

$1565 plus the effort to assemble it all and your apples to apples with a pre-loved Bader BIII @ $1650

I'd pay EXTRA for a KMG over a Bader any day of the week.

Even if you ordered a KMG 8" pkg and a 2hp motor and drive from Rob and added a 2" wheel it's $1881 + shipping I'd do that before the Bader myself even though it's more money. You've got brand new everything and can get any problems resolved via Rob on a brand new purchase.

I've worked on a couple Baders and IMHO it's just not the machine the KMG is. (crappy tracking and in general just not smooth running) I've know several other makers who had Baders but were saving up for a KMG but never anyone who had a KMG but was saving for a Bader.

Proper maintanence may have made the machines I've worked on better but hands down I'd with KMG.

-Josh
 
Some have heard my "Bader" story before, but as it bears on this discussion, I'll tell it again. I had saved my pennies for a LONG time to purchase my "dream grinder".....I knew exactly what I wanted, and HOW I wanted it, and was willing to pay to have it "my way".
All that "my way" equated to was having a platen with a 1 1/2" contact wheel at the top, and a 3" at the bottom. I had my heart set on a BIII. I called Bader, told them I was ready to purchase a grinder, and what I wanted, along with a statement saying that I realized I would have to pay extra for my "add ons". I got a flat "If it's not on the shelf, then you won't get it from us." Not willing to put the contact wheels on the platen...even with me willing to pay for it?

That got me to thinking, if I couldn't even get that amount of customer service out of them purchasing a new product, what would it be like if I ever needed parts or service? I hung up the phone and the next day learned of Rob Frink and the KMG.....I called, and have been happy ever since. You simply will not find better after the sale/customer service than Rob Frink! While the Bader is a good machine, I won't buy/own one, simply because of the way I was treated.

Josh makes good points with his post.....why go with a second hand machine, with questionable customer service, when you can have more for less with a KMG?
 
I have 2 Baders one is almost 20 years old and is still working like new. My variable speed Bader III is a couple years old and I wouldn't trade it for anything else I have seen on the market.

My experience has been great, I drop in to buy belts and get treated like a king. I belong to several blacksmithing organizations and a Bader employee is always there to help. I know they have supported the groups I belong to.

It is possible you got someone on a bad day, it can happen.

ernie
 
I have 2 Baders, a BII and BIII. Both are excellent machines with direct drive, no pulley's to change speeds and take up extra room. Bader has been making grinders for over 45 years, they must be doing something right.

Ed- Why did you want a 3in wheel at the bottom of the platen? So you could swing it up and grind on the 3in wheel?
 
For me, the deal breaker is Bader's poorly set up website. Not only does it tell you little to nothing about their grinders, or how and where to buy them, but they've had "coming soon" on at least a couple of their links (prices and accessories) for months now, if not years.

Now, Beaumont's webpage was clearly set up by somebody with little to no experience in web design, but at least it's functional, and it tells you what you need to know. It gives prices for everything (probably the most important thing) and clearly lists all available accessories and options, as well as package deals. Not to mention, I've seen Rob respond in a very timely manner to questions posted on NUMEROUS web forums and otherwise, so much so, that I know his first name, despite not even owning a KMG. He's even answered a few of my own questions in the past.

I don't have the first clue on how much a bader costs or what it comes with based on their webpage. Is it it $100? $1000? $10,000?
Does it come with variable speed? fixed? What are my options?

Is the customer service as thorough as their webpage? Do they have customer service? Warranties? What?
It may be twice the machine at half the cost for all I know... but that's just it. I don't.

KMG is going to get my business.
 
I have a B11 that I've had for a long time. Bader support is bad in my book. I've had a lot of problems with the tracking lately and ended up solving the problem myself. Took some tome on my mill and some lathe work, but it's fine now. The flat platen just plain sucks. I'm trying to decide what my next grinder is going to be, but it won't be another Bader.
 
Tom & anyone else looking for a great machine.
I have three 2 x 72" grinders.
The Coote. Had it over 15 years. Great starter machine and I will always have uses for it.
A KMG which I purchased while I was have motor troubles with my third machine.
And my flagship Grinder that has been worked six days a week mostly for over 13 years.
My Hardcore Grinder.
I've had some motor issues, But never once has this machine even burped on me!
Smooth Tracking, with little to no vibration and so quiet.
I purchased mine thru Scott and his son Ryan @ http://www.trugrit.com/knife-hardcore.htm
They also sell belts and most everything else.
There is a new machine from Hardcore that they will be carrying that is a Vertical & Horizontal
From Hardcore called the Maximiser.
That isn't out yet but the current Solid & Cast Aluminum models are so sweet!

If you are looking for a plug in & go Grinder. Look at the Hardcore machine.

Laurence

www.rhinoknives.com/
 
Tom,

The BII was greatly improved with a stronger spring, it only takes a minute to swap. Contact Doug at Bader.

ernie
 
I have had no problems with my Bader B111, it is smooth, tracks fine. I am not impressed with the combination arm, which is a platen, slack belt, setup with a 5 inch contact wheel on the bottom, and a 2" idler wheel on top. The contact wheel is almost useless, and the platen is shorter than I would like due to the 5" contact wheel, but I ordered it that way instead of just the platen setup, so that is my fault not Baders. I will be making a new platen with 2 of the 2" idlers instead of the 5" wheel. But I wouldn't trade it for any other machine, mostly because I know what the Bader is, and have never used a KMG. I did notice that KMG makes some attachments to fit a Bader, I like their platen. If I ever buy a second grinder, I will look at a KMG very seriously.
Dale
 
Ed- Why did you want a 3in wheel at the bottom of the platen?
The 3" radius is just right for the contour on the bottom rear of handles....it allows me to simply change my grinding position, versus having to stop, rotate things, or change an attachment.

It is possible you got someone on a bad day, it can happen.
That's possible...but when I'm the customer, with $3K in my hand, ready to spend it on a product, I insist on being treated as a customer. If that doesn't happen, then I go elsewhere. In other words I expect to be treated as I would treat one of my customers...whether that be with an equipment maker/dealer, a supplier, or even a knife show.
If I don't treat a customer well, they aren't coming back to me.....and I will accept nothing different when I am the customer. I didn't get that from Bader....I felt as if I was "bothering" them, and I wouldn't go back to them for anything more than a trivial item or two.

We all know that a grinder is likely the most "personal" tool in the shop... favorite types, brands, etc. will often be the result of which machine and company an individual has the most/best experiences with, and I'm no different in that respect. I had a bad experience with Bader, and a great experience with Rob Frink and the KMG. It doesn't mean that one machine is better than the other....just that one is better FOR ME, than the other.
 
Thanks for the feedback guys. I talked to the guy with the grinder yesterday to get more details, and then priced out the identical setup from Rob Fink. Apples to apples, the Bader III will cost me $1650 + a new tension spring (the original is gone, new one is too weak). I'm not sure what that'll cost, but it can't be much. The new KMG will cost me about $2200 including shipping (the Bader is local), plus I have to set it up. I'll have to wire an outlet for 220V in either case, but I can do that.

Price being equal I'd chose the KMG. The price difference here is material, however, and I'm not sure the incremental cost comes with corresponding incremental benefit. I know I'd be happy using either, as both would be a vast improvement over my current grinder.

Any more feedback from anyone?
 
Can you go look at the Bader and do a little grinding on it? Also look at the condition of the contact wheels.
Listen for any bearing noise? Check tracking. I would bring my own belts, New and Used.
My kmg works etc... but there is room for improvement in vibration & noise compared to my hardcore machine, one thing I have to do is replace the metal faced drive wheel with a rubber covered one.

Good luck!

Laurence

www.rhinoknives.com/
 
Thanks for the feedback guys. I talked to the guy with the grinder yesterday to get more details, and then priced out the identical setup from Rob Fink. Apples to apples, the Bader III will cost me $1650 + a new tension spring (the original is gone, new one is too weak). I'm not sure what that'll cost, but it can't be much. The new KMG will cost me about $2200 including shipping (the Bader is local), plus I have to set it up. I'll have to wire an outlet for 220V in either case, but I can do that.

Price being equal I'd chose the KMG. The price difference here is material, however, and I'm not sure the incremental cost comes with corresponding incremental benefit. I know I'd be happy using either, as both would be a vast improvement over my current grinder.

Any more feedback from anyone?


ED,
Not slamming Rob at Beautmont metals KMG, But when I was investigation the KMG before my purchase I saw your post and your flat Platen attachment with the 3" and other wheels and asked if he could make one like that for my machine if I ordered the whole grinder and Rob said no!

Didn't have time for a special request and I would have to go with the standard set up.
I knew Rob from back in BF times when he was sourcing info from us makers to design and build his first knife grinding machine

I even worked with him a bit when he build a rotary platen for the Hardcore & Burr King designs.

It didn't work well, But he tried and I still purchased his KMG.

So,
The pearl of wisdom here is we all have things we can't do for multitude of reasons.

Take care!

Laurence

www.rhinoknives.com/
www.
 
I was not able to get a KMG from Rob because he had change his shipping policys. I did find some one in canada that made a dam fine kmg clone. The guy I bought off of was to say the least the worst person ive ever bought anything from as far a his personality goes and I doubt after the dealings ive had if I would have ever got any kind of warranty. So in short if I had to do it over I would drive to the states 400 miles to the nearest post office that rob would ship to and buy one from him. One last point customer service and warranty are worth their weight in gold ive never never heard one legit complaint about Rob. Spend the extra 200 and get a new kmg 2hp with vfd one from Rob . Kellyw
 
Laurence maybee you need to talk to Rob again . I would think there would be price increase for changes and maybee this was the problem. If ED Caffery got one I cant see why he wouldnt do the same for you. ??? Kellyw
 
I can shed light on both areas....the platen and the shipping outside the U.S. Rob designed and built the platens from specifications I created and asked him to build for me. (the one he made for me was the first one) He made and sold those platens for some time....the reason he stopped producing them was because of the time factor involved in setting up and reprogramming his CNC equipment to produce the platen/platen parts, which essentially equated to 3 days of down time in his shop, changing over from making grinders, to platens, and back to grinders. We discussed it, and I asked Rob if he would have any misgivings about me offering plans and/or the platen. His response was "I wish you would." You see, he did not want to produce them any more, and I understand why.....he was loosing money making them. Rob is no different than most of us....he's a "one man" shop, and from a production standpoint, can't afford to offer "one offs".....which is essentially what the platens were for him. I actually have a wide variety of choices for the platens.....from plans to finished platens, listed on my website.

Concerning the shipping, Rob took a serious beating on a KMG that he shipped to Europe. He shipped it, the customer refused the shipment when he discovered that there were import fees and tariffs...which Rob had told him about.....and refused the shipment. It got sent back to Rob, who took it in the shorts for shipping costs both ways, as well as the other associated costs.....in short it ended up costing him a bundle! That's why Rob stopped shipping internationally. In this case, one bad egg spoiled the whole thing for everyone who is outside the U.S. That might seem trivial to some, but again, remember that Rob is just like most of us....a one man shop.....something of that magnitude can hurt you badly....and although I know it's a bummer for those wanting a KMG who are outside the U.S., I can also see and understand it from Rob's perspective.

Both of those scenarios are aspects everyone might not like, but you have to put yourself in his shoes, and respect the choices he made for the sake of his business. I still get calls from folks who are upset because Rob won't ship outside the U.S., but it is his business, and he has to do what he must for it's sake. Personally, I'd love to see him shipping worldwide, and wish he would....but in this case, it's "once bitten, twice shy".
 
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I can shed light on both areas....the platen and the shipping outside the U.S. Rob designed and built the platens from specifications I created and asked him to build for me. (the one he made for me was the first one) He made and sold those platens for some time....the reason he stopped producing them was because of the time factor involved in setting up and reprogramming his CNC equipment to produce the platen/platen parts, which essentially equated to 3 days of down time in his shop, changing over from making grinders, to platens, and back to grinders. We discussed it, and I asked Rob if he would have any misgivings about me offering plans and/or the platen. His response was "I wish you would." You see, he did not want to produce them any more, and I understand why.....he was loosing money making them. Rob is no different than most of us....he's a "one man" shop, and from a production standpoint, can't afford to offer "one offs".....which is essentially what the platens were for him. I actually have a wide variety of choices for the platens.....from plans to finished platens, listed on my website.

Concerning the shipping, Rob took a serious beating on a KMG that he shipped to Europe. He shipped it, the customer refused the shipment when he discovered that there were import fees and tariffs...which Rob had told him about.....and refused the shipment. It got sent back to Rob, who took it in the shorts for shipping costs both ways, as well as the other associated costs.....in short it ended up costing him a bundle! That's why Rob stopped shipping internationally. In this case, one bad egg spoiled the whole thing for everyone who is outside the U.S. That might seem trivial to some, but again, remember that Rob is just like most of us....a one man shop.....something of that magnitude can hurt you badly....and although I know it's a bummer for those wanting a KMG who are outside the U.S., I can also see and understand it from Rob's perspective.

Both of those scenarios are aspects everyone might not like, but you have to put yourself in his shoes, and respect the choices he made for the sake of his business. I still get calls from folks who are upset because Rob won't ship outside the U.S., but it is his business, and he has to do what he must for it's sake. Personally, I'd love to see him shipping worldwide, and wish he would....but in this case, it's "once bitten, twice shy".

Ed,
I did take it into account, I still purchased the KMG grinder from Rob.

I was just stating this because I'm sure Bader would have similar issues with making a one of Platen.

Also I'm sure that a big company like that has been sued just like Burr-King was because a knucklehead injured himself with one of their machines and decided it couldn't possibly be his fault?

We have far to many Lawyers in our country preaching to people that they don't have a ounce of personal responsibility.

I'm sure Baders lawyers have told them to only sell off the shelf parts. I believe this is why Burr King won't sell a wheel of 12" or larger anymore.

Shakespeare was right when a few hundred years ago, He wrote, "Kill all the Lawyers!"

OK! I'm getting myself all worked up! :taz: it's time for my medication.

Laurence

www.rhinoknives
 
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