Hey I am getting ready to make an 11" dagger and a smaller push dagger. I have made a few daggers in the past put always have a hard time keeping them symetrical. I was wondering what or how some of you fellors do to keep them symetrical. What is a good way to measure to make sure they are even?? Hope some of you fellors can help me out with this. Thanks
Keeping Daggers Symetrical??
- Thread starter SPAknives
- Start date
Frank Niro
KNIFE MAKER
Go to Fowler Knives here in the Knife Dogs and look at his WIP. He does an excellent job of SHOWING how to do this. Frank
EdCaffreyMS
"The Montana Bladesmith"
Hi Shane!
Dagger are without a doubt the most difficult knives to make correctly...most of it due to what you mentioned...symmetry.
On a single edge blade/knife, you have two planes, and we do our best to make each plane a mirror image of the other. With a dagger you have two planes per side, for a total of four. Not only do you have to make the two planes on each side mirror images, but you also have to make the two planes on each side mirror images of the other.
The best advice I can give you, is to draw the blade on a piece of stiff card stock, the fold it in half, exactly on the center line of the blade, and use that as your template. There are a lot of things to keep track of, so be watchful. When I built my MS dagger, I did it three times, trying to forge out the blade. I finally gave up and built a billet, surface ground it, and then scribed every line on the thing, and did it all with files and sandpaper.
Dagger are without a doubt the most difficult knives to make correctly...most of it due to what you mentioned...symmetry.
On a single edge blade/knife, you have two planes, and we do our best to make each plane a mirror image of the other. With a dagger you have two planes per side, for a total of four. Not only do you have to make the two planes on each side mirror images, but you also have to make the two planes on each side mirror images of the other.
The best advice I can give you, is to draw the blade on a piece of stiff card stock, the fold it in half, exactly on the center line of the blade, and use that as your template. There are a lot of things to keep track of, so be watchful. When I built my MS dagger, I did it three times, trying to forge out the blade. I finally gave up and built a billet, surface ground it, and then scribed every line on the thing, and did it all with files and sandpaper.
Sean Cochran
Well-Known Member
Thanks for sharing Ed. If a guy with your talent has a hard time with daggers, then I dont feel so bad. I have had the same problem, to the point that I have never gotten a dagger I was happy enough with to put handles on. I still keep trying though.
Sean
Sean
Nathan The Machinist
Well-Known Member
Using "EDM" stones will help preserve a crisp center ridge better than sand paper.
300 400 and 600 grit stones are very useful.
I am not a dagger grinding expert, however I have ground a few and I have looked at a lot of daggers and it is a subject I've given a lot of thought to.
Something a lot of folks don't think about is the profile of the blade through the center. Some folks create a shallow grind that makes a thin blade. This is easy to "not do". Something that is more difficult to wrap your head around is what you get with a nice thick center ridge that abruptly gets thin and creates a concave line near the tip where the bevels intersect approaching the point. If you're doing a flat grind you need to increase the grind angle some to prevent this. If you're doing a hollow grind you need to lower your grind. This gives you control of both the edge thickness and the thickness at the center spine as it approaches the tip. You probably want it to be straight or convex as it approaches the tip, but it won't be if you simply allow your grind to maintain the same tangent point relative to the edge as you approach the tip.
So - the geometry that is created at the intersection of your bevels is something to think about. Even if it is perfectly straight and centered it can still be wrong. And it can be good, but the two sides may not match. ...just food for thought...
Here is an edge view that illustrates what I'm trying to say:
300 400 and 600 grit stones are very useful.
I am not a dagger grinding expert, however I have ground a few and I have looked at a lot of daggers and it is a subject I've given a lot of thought to.
Something a lot of folks don't think about is the profile of the blade through the center. Some folks create a shallow grind that makes a thin blade. This is easy to "not do". Something that is more difficult to wrap your head around is what you get with a nice thick center ridge that abruptly gets thin and creates a concave line near the tip where the bevels intersect approaching the point. If you're doing a flat grind you need to increase the grind angle some to prevent this. If you're doing a hollow grind you need to lower your grind. This gives you control of both the edge thickness and the thickness at the center spine as it approaches the tip. You probably want it to be straight or convex as it approaches the tip, but it won't be if you simply allow your grind to maintain the same tangent point relative to the edge as you approach the tip.
So - the geometry that is created at the intersection of your bevels is something to think about. Even if it is perfectly straight and centered it can still be wrong. And it can be good, but the two sides may not match. ...just food for thought...
Here is an edge view that illustrates what I'm trying to say:
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J
JDB
Guest
Hey Shane,
I do what I do on any unusual shape and stock removal. I use bluing and a scribe to draw on every detail like I would a paper paper drawing. And if it's starts to get worn off a little, I scribe it back on. As Ed said, there are a lot of details to watch so I make a pattern to check it with. The centerline of the edge is the hardest thing to put on if you want to taper stock for me, so I usually try to cut out the profile, blue the new profile of the stock, put the centerline on that and then taper the stock evenly using the centerline as a reference.
If I'm forging, I have a piece of thin sheet metal that I draw the design on. I bet you can figure out why I use steel for forging. LOL
But I still make a pattern and then trace that onto the sheet metal so my finished blade will fit inside the lines, but I extend the centerline marks out both ends to give me something to visualize the centerline of the blade with. As well as all the major elements. Then for me...it's just a matter of getting lucky if it turns out.
I may be doing it the hard way. Don't know. I've never seen a real smith forge or even met another maker for that matter. I just make it up as I go. ;~)
I suppose you could make jigs to hold it on the rest and the that sort of thing, but I'm too impatient for all that.
Good luck man. I agree. Daggers are a pain!
JD,
I do what I do on any unusual shape and stock removal. I use bluing and a scribe to draw on every detail like I would a paper paper drawing. And if it's starts to get worn off a little, I scribe it back on. As Ed said, there are a lot of details to watch so I make a pattern to check it with. The centerline of the edge is the hardest thing to put on if you want to taper stock for me, so I usually try to cut out the profile, blue the new profile of the stock, put the centerline on that and then taper the stock evenly using the centerline as a reference.
If I'm forging, I have a piece of thin sheet metal that I draw the design on. I bet you can figure out why I use steel for forging. LOL
But I still make a pattern and then trace that onto the sheet metal so my finished blade will fit inside the lines, but I extend the centerline marks out both ends to give me something to visualize the centerline of the blade with. As well as all the major elements. Then for me...it's just a matter of getting lucky if it turns out.
I may be doing it the hard way. Don't know. I've never seen a real smith forge or even met another maker for that matter. I just make it up as I go. ;~)
I suppose you could make jigs to hold it on the rest and the that sort of thing, but I'm too impatient for all that.
Good luck man. I agree. Daggers are a pain!
JD,
Kevin R. Cashen
Super Moderator
Excuse me for cutting into the conversation, but since I am packing to leave to teach an ABS course on the quillon dagger starting on Monday, I kind of have daggers on the mind right now, since it is the first of two dagger sessions I am doing this month.
You have the focus where it should be at, in the lecture I give at hammer-ins I drive home the point that these daggers can be summed up in one word “symmetry”. Ed’s suggestion of that card stock cut out is an excellent one. I also lay the dagger on a piece of paper during the rough grind profiling and trace around the outside, and then flip the dagger over to be certain it matches both ways.
Due to the symmetry daggers are more 3 dimensional than any other knife and you must gear your thinking to this or they will be a bear to try to make. Looking back I now say that daggers are not more troubling as much as they are just very different from single edged blades. Once I shifted gears to accommodate for this many of my troubles went away (well that and making a whole bunch of swords). One example of this is the centerline, if you think in two dimensions and try to push the centerline towards one edge or the other to keep it straight you will be in a world of hurt. But if you realize that to move that centerline you need to change the thickness on one or more of the bevels, suddenly the things just sort of becomes self straightening as you bring that 3rd dimension into play. Most modern makers also make it more difficult on themselves by making the blade too thin. The dagger is a thrusting instrument that needs to be stiff, and one thing I have learned in all my handling and studies of 16th and 17th century daggers is how a thicker cross section not only accomplishes this, but it also makes it easier on us trying to make them. The higher the angles, the sharper the lines and the easier it is to keep them in order, and tapers are not only critical to the function they also help in all this symmetrical juggling we are doing.
I have quite a few tricks that help me out with my daggers that I would be more than happy to share with you Shane. If I can be of any help feel free to give me a call after I get back from teaching in a week- 989-981-6780.
You have the focus where it should be at, in the lecture I give at hammer-ins I drive home the point that these daggers can be summed up in one word “symmetry”. Ed’s suggestion of that card stock cut out is an excellent one. I also lay the dagger on a piece of paper during the rough grind profiling and trace around the outside, and then flip the dagger over to be certain it matches both ways.
Due to the symmetry daggers are more 3 dimensional than any other knife and you must gear your thinking to this or they will be a bear to try to make. Looking back I now say that daggers are not more troubling as much as they are just very different from single edged blades. Once I shifted gears to accommodate for this many of my troubles went away (well that and making a whole bunch of swords). One example of this is the centerline, if you think in two dimensions and try to push the centerline towards one edge or the other to keep it straight you will be in a world of hurt. But if you realize that to move that centerline you need to change the thickness on one or more of the bevels, suddenly the things just sort of becomes self straightening as you bring that 3rd dimension into play. Most modern makers also make it more difficult on themselves by making the blade too thin. The dagger is a thrusting instrument that needs to be stiff, and one thing I have learned in all my handling and studies of 16th and 17th century daggers is how a thicker cross section not only accomplishes this, but it also makes it easier on us trying to make them. The higher the angles, the sharper the lines and the easier it is to keep them in order, and tapers are not only critical to the function they also help in all this symmetrical juggling we are doing.
I have quite a few tricks that help me out with my daggers that I would be more than happy to share with you Shane. If I can be of any help feel free to give me a call after I get back from teaching in a week- 989-981-6780.