I've got a "how thick" problem with my forge build.

Chris623

Chris623

Well-Known Member
If this thread is in the wrong forum, please move it.

I've started laying out on paper the exact dimensions of my forge..........showing the inside measurement of the 12" square pipe and the 2 1/2" thick K-26 soft brick all the way around. What I end up with is a forge cavity sized 6 1/4" x 6 1/4 x 17". Now I need to decide how thick to cast the KOL30. Originally my thought was to cast 1" thick all round. But that would only end up giving me a 4 1/4" square cavity. My primary purpose for building a forge is to make knives. I eventually would like to be able to forge weld (fake damascus) blades. So will a 4 1/4" square cavity be large enough to do that??? Not having any experience, I'm thinking maybe not! So would 1/2" on the side-walls and ceiling of the forge and then 1" on the floor still give the brick plenty of protection? I'm kind of stuck here right now until I make up my mind, so would really appreciate what you knife makers think.

I've attached a pic of my forge stand with the forge on top. Looks humongous but that's the wide-angle lens effect. The center of the forge cavity will be 53" off the concrete floor which is perfect for an old phart who's back isn't crazy about bending over. :D This is a forced air ribbon burner forge, if that makes any difference.
 

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Yes, I have Wayne, and you have already told me you didn't recommend my build project when I bought all my supplies from you.
 
Chris..... I personally believe you would be far better served with a round designed forge....especially if you intend to forge weld down the road. You'll have a far easier time learning, and your welding consistency will be far better. OK, that being said, to your question about castable thickness...... A LEAST 3" thick on any/all castable type refractory, otherwise you're just wasting your time and materials.

I've gone back, read, and re-read your post...... if I'm reading it correctly, your intent is to line with firebrick and then coat with refractory? If so, please don't go that route..... it will only be a few times firing/using it before it all starts to fall apart, then you'll be stomping and cursing it. PLEASE, if you're looking for usability and durability, rethink your design, and your materials. In the end, you're gona do what you want....I'm just trying to save you some time, effort, money...... and a whole truck load of grief.
 
Chris623 said:
But that would only end up giving me a 4 1/4" square cavity. My primary purpose for building a forge is to make knives. I eventually would like to be able to forge weld (fake damascus) blades.
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Being that I made my own forge I would have to say 4.25" is a tad on the small side.
To each there own. That would be like me making fun of someone else's motorcycle. The 4.25" is only .25 over the opening on my forge. You have had a lot of good advice. What you do with it is up to you!

Ok,,,, Now,,, fake damascus? That's a joke right?
 

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Forge welded steel is not Damascus.........it's forge welded steel. From what I've read and seen, true Damascus steel "makings" is only available from one mine in the world that they know of, and it's not around here. Watched a long video showing a blacksmith working with some historical organization to bring some of the material here to the States and actually make real Damascus. That was why I made the statement the way I did. Not trying to make enemies here, just relaying what I'd seen.
 
Google is your friend!
m.youtube.com/watch?v=ISSGL4Ns2qw

Some times this does not work.
Search: Will the real damascus please stand up by Walter Sorrells.
 
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Thanks for the link. Walter and I go back an forth in e-mails and I highly respect his opinion. So he says in the video that my stance is ignorant...............okay...........but he also ends up with "neither one (opinion on the subject) is right or wrong". So............as I said previously, I wasn't trying to irritate anyone or make any enemies. I wouldn't for one minute put down the effort that most of you go to making the beautiful forge welded steel (Damascus) blades you do. They blow me away. I pour over all your pictures all the time. I can only hope to forge a piece of steel half as beautiful some day. So I wasn't putting down anyone's efforts. I was just stating what I'd learned in a very long and interesting video. Truly sorry if I offended.
 
There are ways you can make the square forge round on the inside. That being said My forge is rectangular and I forge weld in it fine but have only done small billets. With larger billets it does heat unevenly but I overcome it by moving the piece around. When I build a forge it will be at least oval. Your forge innards do sound a littlle small but if all you wish to forge are knives then its more than likely OK. I can tell you it is very small for blacksmith work though. If you really wish to avoid making people angry but still be correct in your definitions then use the term “pattern welded steel” and then you do not have to use the term “fake damascus”.
 
Chris623 said:
Thanks for the link. Walter and I go back an forth in e-mails and I highly respect his opinion. So he says in the video that my stance is ignorant...............okay...........but he also ends up with "neither one (opinion on the subject) is right or wrong". So............as I said previously, I wasn't trying to irritate anyone or make any enemies. I wouldn't for one minute put down the effort that most of you go to making the beautiful forge welded steel (Damascus) blades you do. They blow me away. I pour over all your pictures all the time. I can only hope to forge a piece of steel half as beautiful some day. So I wasn't putting down anyone's efforts. I was just stating what I'd learned in a very long and interesting video. Truly sorry if I offended.
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Just wondering, What video did you watch that refers to our blades as fake damascus.
Myself,,, I was not offended at all. It is my understanding that some laser etch a damascus pattern on a blade. That is what came to mind when you called it fake damascus.
 
After all of the hulabaloo I caused yesterday, I started searching for it and actually found it just a couple of hours ago. It's long, but fascinating. Would be boring to anyone but a blacksmith. Here ya go:
Unless I interpreted it entirely wrong, they indicated "this" was the original Damascus steel and today's pattern welded steels were simply forge welded look-a-likes. If I'm wrong, you guys can throw dung at me and I'll sit and take it. (I'll still salivate at the work all of you do!)
 
I just finished watching. Interesting. Myself,,, I think they are a little anal. I agree, there is a difference between wootz and the steel we use now. It was interesting that they did not give the Japanese any credit for there wootz. I'll just leave it at that. So you are going to make fake damascus or you are going to make real wootz damascus?
 
Ya, I thought that this was where the comment on "fake" damascus was going to go. From my understanding the original damascus was wootz steel. Then that go confused go confused with the patterning caused by twisting and welding bars of steel together to create a pattern or the pattern in Japanese blades that was caused by multiple folding and welding of steel billets.

Doug
 
springer82 said:
I just finished watching. Interesting. Myself,,, I think they are a little anal. I agree, there is a difference between wootz and the steel we use now. It was interesting that they did not give the Japanese any credit for there wootz. I'll just leave it at that. So you are going to make fake damascus or you are going to make real wootz damascus?
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Well...............................if I'm gonna stay true to myself, and since I can't make true Wootz Damascus, I'm hoping someday to try and make pattern welded steel for some blades. ;)
 
After being in this business for 30+ years, the "Damascus" OR "Pattern Welded Steel" contention has been, and always will be a part of it.

What I have seen over the years is that within the industry, from customs to factory produced..... the words "Damascus" AND/OR "Pattern Welded Steel" are commonly used/recognized words to describe layered, manipulated, forged welded steels. The word "Wootz" has been/is used to describe the non-layered/laminated...or.... the original Damascus.

I think that most serious Bladesmiths have researched "Damascus", and it's history. Considering that its name (Damascus) came from where it was made available/sold, rather than anything to do with what it actually is, or what it contains, I find it more an issue of semantics rather than one term or the other being correct or incorrect.

Personally, I had the same right and wrong issue way back when. The reason that I chose/choose to use the term "Damascus" in relationship to forge welded/laminated materials, is simply because it gets far less Deer in the headlights looks from potential clients and those not intimately familiar with knives. In short, the term "Damascus" is just more widely used/recognized when describing pattern welded materials in the current world of knives.
 
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