How critical is quenchant temperature ?

flatblackcapo

Well-Known Member
How critical is quenchant temperature? Is there any place I can find recommended quenchant temps for various steel and quenchant combinations ?
Kevin,if I missed this info in your stickies I apologize. Thanks to all that share their knowledge and the time it takes to do so!
Kevin
 
How critical is quenchant temperature? Is there any place I can find recommended quenchant temps for various steel and quenchant combinations ?
Kevin,if I missed this info in your stickies I apologize. Thanks to all that share their knowledge and the time it takes to do so!
Kevin

With some quenchants it is very important with others not so much, the key is to know your quenchant. The temperature range depends solely on the quenchant and has nothing to do with the steel. If the steel requires a different speed then it is better to get a different quenchant rather than trying to make a quenchant perform outside of its intended range. No quenchant should exceed around 180F, there are martempering oils specifically designed to go higher than this but regular oils are not, and of course low temp salts have a range from 250F to over 600F, but I don't think we are discussing them.

Most oils have a sweet spot in convection versus conduction based on viscosity, raw canola is around 130F. Parks #50 is around 75F-120F, Parks AAA is 130F to 160F. The Houghton oils are around the same (120F- 140F); although Houghton ran the standard tests on their Bio-quench at 140F and recommends 140F-160F for Houghto-Quench G and gives a miximum of 180F for Houghto-Quench K with the ideal curve at 140-160F .
Chevron 70 104F-120F. Some folks have gotten different results running oils at different temps but one needs to also remember the health of the oil, if you invested in a good one; they also have a range to work in for maximum lifespan as well.
 
Kevin, Not trying to hijack this thread but have a question about quenchants and you touched on it a little here.

So here it goes.

Whats the "maximum lifespan" of a oil like Parks or Houghton if used in the recommended manner. I have heard many different opinions and you know what they say. So Ill ask what the facts are?
 
Hey no worries Randy. I would say the life span is 1 quench,after that you can send it to me and I will use it.....I mean dispose of it properly.
Kevin,
So in layman's terms what could happen if the quenchant is too cold, around 50*F?
 
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I agree that any commercial quenchant will work fine in its reccomended range and the difference between the low side and the high side is minimal. However, I find that Parks #50 gives me the highest and most consistent hardness numbers in the 100-105 range. That is for me, my procedures, & my equipment. Your results may vary. I guess thats what Kevin meant by sweet spot.
 
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Thank you Darrin. Did you find that the hardness of your blades was a lot lower at lower temps? Does anyone know where I might be able to find recommended temps ? Is all this info on the companies web site?
 
Kevin, Not trying to hijack this thread but have a question about quenchants and you touched on it a little here.

So here it goes.

Whats the "maximum lifespan" of a oil like Parks or Houghton if used in the recommended manner. I have heard many different opinions and you know what they say. So Ill ask what the facts are?

There is no definitive answer here, it all depends on how you use it. Keep it clean, in the appropriate working temperature range and above all moisture (water) free and it should serve the average knifemaker for a very long time. Good oils are designed for the heavy hard use that industry will give it with hundreds if not thousands of parts a day, a custom knifemaker that takes care of it will give it the easy life for certain. It is, after all, the consistent results over time that is perhaps the greatest advantage of a good formulated quench oil, so that is why taking care of it is so important, much the same way it is important not to abuse or trash a good Bridgeport mill. I can't stress enough for folks not to edge quench in a good oil, the quickest way to trash it is to catch it on fire. The thermodynamics of an edge quench are so far off from standard quenching that there really is no difference just to use a vegetable oil substitute, and burning up Wesson oil is a lot cheaper.

All I can say is monitor things, if the oil starts looking dirty or results start getting inconsistent then it may be time to change things out. One of the things that I really like about the Park Metallurgical oils is that they are clear, if you can't see the blade cooling clearly below the surface the oil is not at its best. Some common signs are staining, scaling or nasty deposits on the blade surface, if you knives are coming out of the quench not looking a nice, clean mottled gray your oil may be going south on you. I have been using the same batch of Parks #50 for at least five years now, granted I don't do much oil quenching but all the same it is still going strong. Once a year I empty the tank and clean all the salt flakes out of the bottom and put the oil back in.
 
If you buy a 5 gallon pail it will come with and MSDS sheet and the reccomended temps. will be listed also. As long as you use it within the reccomended temps. it will work fine. As long as your within the reccomended range the hardness numbers should have less than 1 point difference. I guess the main reason I get higher RC numbers is because of the consistency. I do an average of 5 tests to establish my HRC value and I think the main difference is the readings are more consistent when quenched in 100-105 degree oil. I could be way off though.
 
Hey no worries Randy. I would say the life span is 1 quench,after that you can send it to me and I will use it.....I mean dispose of it properly.
Kevin,
So in layman's terms what could happen if the quenchant is too cold, around 50*F?

Far too often the quench is the first place people look for less than adequate hardening when it is often other factors. Even a less than adequate quench will show some sings of hardening, heck there is a huge difference in 1095 that just cools in the air form some that is slow cooled, so even a lousy quench will get you in the high 40's HRC. Granted you want 65 or better but if the oil was cold and sluggish you may see high 50's instead, if the steel is still like 36 HRC I would suspect more than cool oil is the problem.

I should probably ask what oil are you working with? It would be easier to focus on that information instead of trying to list everything out there.
 
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I agree that any commercial quenchant will work fine in its reccomended range and the difference between the low side and the high side is minimal. However, I find that Parks #50 gives me the highest and most consistent hardness numbers in the 100-105 range. That is for me, my procedures, & my equipment. Your results may vary. I guess thats what Kevin meant by sweet spot.

I have found a sweet spot in the same range with through hardening of 1/4" or better 1095 at 108F.
 
Thank you Darrin. Did you find that the hardness of your blades was a lot lower at lower temps? Does anyone know where I might be able to find recommended temps ? Is all this info on the companies web site?

I am not sure what other information you are looking for, the numbers I mentioned in my post above came directly off from the spec sheets provided by the manufacturers, as well as their lab results for nickel ball and GM quenchometer tests. I have a fairly complete collection of information from many of the major manufacturers including a pretty good relationship with guys in some of their labs.
 
There is no definitive answer here, it all depends on how you use it. Keep it clean, in the appropriate working temperature range and above all moisture (water) free and it should serve the average knifemaker for a very long time. Good oils are designed for the heavy hard use that industry will give it with hundreds if not thousands of parts a day, a custom knifemaker that takes care of it will give it the easy life for certain. It is, after all, the consistent results over time that is perhaps the greatest advantage of a good formulated quench oil, so that is why taking care of it is so important, much the same way it is important not to abuse or trash a good Bridgeport mill. I can't stress enough for folks not to edge quench in a good oil, the quickest way to trash it is to catch it on fire. The thermodynamics of an edge quench are so far off from standard quenching that there really is no difference just to use a vegetable oil substitute, and burning up Wesson oil is a lot cheaper.

All I can say is monitor things, if the oil starts looking dirty or results start getting inconsistent then it may be time to change things out. One of the things that I really like about the Park Metallurgical oils is that they are clear, if you can't see the blade cooling clearly below the surface the oil is not at its best. Some common signs are staining, scaling or nasty deposits on the blade surface, if you knives are coming out of the quench not looking a nice, clean mottled gray your oil may be going south on you. I have been using the same batch of Parks #50 for at least five years now, granted I don't do much oil quenching but all the same it is still going strong. Once a year I empty the tank and clean all the salt flakes out of the bottom and put the oil back in.




Thanks Kevin.
 
Far too often the quench is the first place people look for less than adequate hardening when it is often other factors. Even a less than adequate quench will show some sings of hardening, heck there is a huge difference in 1095 that just cools in the air form some that is slow cooled, so even a lousy quench will get you in the high 40's HRC. Granted you want 65 or better but if the oil was cold and sluggish you may see high 50's instead, if the steel is still like 36 HRC I would suspect more than cool oil is the problem.

I should probably ask what oil are you working with? It would be easier to focus on that information instead of trying to list everything out there.
I'm sorry Kevin. I should have been more clear. I am not having any problems with hardness. I am just curious about how much of a difference it would make between quenching in a room temperature (50 deg F) quenchant and warming the quenchant up. I was also looking to find information on recommended quenchant temps. I am using Duratherm G . I read through the MSDS and did not find a recommended temp .
 
I'm sorry Kevin. I should have been more clear. I am not having any problems with hardness. I am just curious about how much of a difference it would make between quenching in a room temperature (50 deg F) quenchant and warming the quenchant up. I was also looking to find information on recommended quenchant temps. I am using Duratherm G . I read through the MSDS and did not find a recommended temp .

I can sympathize, MSDS (material safety data) really aren't that useful for information for anybody outside of OSHA, DOT or emergency personnel, us firefighters have whole books we need to carry on our rigs. I have MSDS on all the oils I mentioned above as well but rarely consult them, the only reason you get that paper is because it has to be included to ship it. The papers you want are the spec sheets and lab analysis sheets. General information spec sheets can often be found on the provider or manufactures web site or are available on request and will include recommendations for use which will cover working temp. The lab data sheets will have detailed cooling curve analysis done by nickel ball or quenchometer, they will want to get the best curve they can so they normally warm to a standard range to achieve that. That range is almost always from 100F to 140F and rarely below that, so the slight warm up is important.
 
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